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What was so important to hide in order to violate a Yulai codicil?

Author
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2015-07-26 14:30:25 UTC

iyammarrok wrote:
I have personally been scanned by drifter variant entosis links on multiple occasions, they have no adverse effects.


Implying that there's no difference between you and the Empress of Amarr.

We have personally been shot by water pistols on multiple occasions with no adverse effects. If we went up to President Roden and shot him with one, we would likely be killed.



We see a lot of opinions driven by dislike of the Empress. No one actually has any idea what sort of threat Matshi Raish posed, but you are willing to argue from that standpoint because it fits your narrative about how terrible the Empress is. Security details for dignitaries err on the side of caution. The security detail for the supreme head of the largest sovereign entity in the Cluster will not desist on the off chance that the lunatic with the gun is actually just armed with a replica.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)

Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#82 - 2015-07-26 14:34:03 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
All signatories, all silent on the matter. Perhaps you should take a cue from that?
Taking cues from silence is something I cannot recommend. Asuming silence means either agreement or disagreement can lead to complications, as I've seen on various occassions.


In law, silence is taken to mean consent.

The lack of comment is, in my view, simply the delay caused by reflection and bureaucracy. Nonetheless, whilst other governments decline making their views known, Lord Mokk is correct in his claim that this silence can be construed as consent to the actions of the Empress.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#83 - 2015-07-26 14:52:44 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Khanid is also a signatory. The Kingdom is ok with this situation. So is the Royal Navy. Apparently so is the State, the Republic and EVEN YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT. All signatories, all silent on the matter. Perhaps you should take a cue from that?


Does it surprise anyone that none of the Signatories object to 'Smeg off, CONCORD, we'll kill who we want, you just stick to keeping those uppity capsuleers in line?'

I mean, really.
Frenjo Borkstar
Doomheim
#84 - 2015-07-26 14:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Frenjo Borkstar
Che Biko wrote:
Did anyone else scan the Titan?


He activated an entosis link, or what appeared to be one, however I was running passive scans of the entire system throughout the whole event.
I also scanned the titan, but it's shields were up so I couldn't get anything conclusive.

Viriel,

Borkstar Laboratories,

The Borkstar Initiative.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#85 - 2015-07-26 14:56:53 UTC
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
It is the Society of Conscious Thought that has to provide an explanation for its intrusive, inappropriate and arrogant behaviour that not only constituted an offence towards the Empress, but also towards the blood of the martyrs of Mekhios.


The Society presents a capsuleer face to most of the Cluster, but don't forget who they really are. The last time your Empire demanded compliance from the Jove, you not only lost the shortest war in the cluster's history, you got the extra special parting gift of the Minmatar Rebellion.

Go for round 2. Please. Let's see who runs away from your God and Empress this time.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#86 - 2015-07-26 14:59:09 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:


We see a lot of opinions driven by dislike of the Empress.


Incorrect. My opinion is driven by a dislike of arbitrary violence being exercised against the seekers-of-knowledge. To me, this isn't about her imperial majesty's nobility of person, but about Raish's acting within the bounds of interstellar law and being killed at the whim of a sovereign.

Goldfinch wrote:

No one actually has any idea what sort of threat Matshi Raish posed, but you are willing to argue from that standpoint because it fits your narrative about how terrible the Empress is. Security details for dignitaries err on the side of caution. The security detail for the supreme head of the largest sovereign entity in the Cluster will not desist on the off chance that the lunatic with the gun is actually just armed with a replica.


Excepting that an Entosis Link is not a gun and has never been a gun. Claims to the contrary are fanciful.

Ships should not be destroyed due to fancy.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Arrendis
TK Corp
#87 - 2015-07-26 15:02:53 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:

iyammarrok wrote:
I have personally been scanned by drifter variant entosis links on multiple occasions, they have no adverse effects.


Implying that there's no difference between you and the Empress of Amarr.


Actually, I think the implication is that there is a clear difference between the Empress of Amarr, her titan, and the dozens of Avatars I've seen scanned by Circadian Seeker links. And the difference is something she doesn't want getting out.

Goldfinch wrote:

We have personally been shot by water pistols on multiple occasions with no adverse effects. If we went up to President Roden and shot him with one, we would likely be killed.


And if he had been shot immediately, as a reaction, or while conducting his scans, I don't think anyone would see it as anything but maybe overzealous security. In your analogy, you've walked up to President Roden, shot him with a squirt gun, and everyone's seen it was just a squirt gun, and he's unharmed. Then you turn and start to walk away, only to have the President order - not his security detail - the crowd to kill you. So the mob tears you limb from limb.

Not quite the same thing as being shot by the security for pulling a gun on the President. That's what has people... let's say 'curious', rather than necessarily 'critical'.
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#88 - 2015-07-26 15:40:02 UTC
What a incredibly interesting series of events.

A SOCT vessel bothers to attend a event in Amarr space equipped with some kind of prototype presumably non lethal device to use on a head of state that said head of state responding with an unusually violent reaction to the use of said prototype when directed at them.

I think the answers for why this series of events unfolded is going to be very interesting.

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

"DRINK STARSI!" ©®™Ownership Group Chairman

Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2015-07-26 16:32:21 UTC

Makoto Priano wrote:
Incorrect. My opinion is driven by a dislike of arbitrary violence being exercised against the seekers-of-knowledge. To me, this isn't about her imperial majesty's nobility of person, but about Raish's acting within the bounds of interstellar law and being killed at the whim of a sovereign.

Actually, you have no idea what Raish was doing. All you have is his word that he is doing nothing illegal, and a codicil which cannot be found in any written Yulai Convention records anywhere.



Quote:
Excepting that an Entosis Link is not a gun and has never been a gun. Claims to the contrary are fanciful.

You've never personally equipped or used an Entosis Link that can target a Capsuleer ship. How are you suddenly an expert of how they operate? What I find interesting is that even the person whose report you used to determine how Entosis Links work on Capsuleer ships, actually opened fire on Raish's ship, according to the Kill Report. Why do you think that is?



Arrendis, your hindsight has perfect clarity.. but your conjecture is made long after the fact, and not in the moment. Security complications are dynamic, and being a combat veteran like yourself, we think that you should be sympathetic to how quickly decisions need to be made in the field. The safety of the Empress comes at the cost of mercy for Raish's life.

Even a thousand Raish clones is not of equal worth to the Empress of Amarr.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)

Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#90 - 2015-07-26 16:39:13 UTC
If it had been a quickly made decision, it would have been less interesting and more understandable, yes. It wasn't. The decision came only after he was done and publicly stated his business was concluded, which quite clearly was taken as a far greater threat than the (for combat pilots at least) quite significant amount of time he spent actually engaging in his scanning.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that this is noted with interest.
Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
#91 - 2015-07-26 16:51:04 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
It is the Society of Conscious Thought that has to provide an explanation for its intrusive, inappropriate and arrogant behaviour that not only constituted an offence towards the Empress, but also towards the blood of the martyrs of Mekhios.


The Society presents a capsuleer face to most of the Cluster, but don't forget who they really are. The last time your Empire demanded compliance from the Jove, you not only lost the shortest war in the cluster's history, you got the extra special parting gift of the Minmatar Rebellion.

Go for round 2. Please. Let's see who runs away from your God and Empress this time.
Who could forget what the Society represents? A dying, degenerate race that God has abandoned a long time ago. If need be, the Empire will not again sent an expedition corps to encounter them, but an armada.

But I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasn’t talking about war and bloodshed, but about honour and principles. I know, it is hard for you to understand these two...
Arrendis
TK Corp
#92 - 2015-07-26 17:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Goldfinch wrote:

Arrendis, your hindsight has perfect clarity.. but your conjecture is made long after the fact, and not in the moment. Security complications are dynamic, and being a combat veteran like yourself, we think that you should be sympathetic to how quickly decisions need to be made in the field. The safety of the Empress comes at the cost of mercy for Raish's life.


Indeed, security complications are dynamic and highly-charged - and the trained, professional security assets on-field did not take action against him except to insist he desist and back away. They clearly considered his actions inappropriate, but not an imminent threat. That assessment was made by a personally-aggrieved party who had, after all, just been successfully defied. In public. At a ceremony where she was trumpeting a victory that would ensure the Matari would never dare set foot in that place again.

While we were already there.

Someone who's used to getting her way and being obeyed without question isn't going to take kindly to being made to look impotent in public, and that's exactly what Raish did. She blew up a capsuleer's ship. She didn't prevent him from doing what he wanted to do, and she didn't prevent him from relaying anything he wanted to relay back to the Society - either through real-time packet forwarding or by just storing the data in his wetware and spitting it back out when he woke up in the clone bay. And she knew it. And she was - visibly, demonstrably - angry about it.

Yeah, she did a good little bit of spin on it, using it as a 'and so shall those who defy us fall blah blah' moment, and yeah, the crowd ate it up, but I mean, really now. She shows up, talks up the victory seven years ago so all the Amarr get that nationalism puffing up their chests, then some guy turns up and defies her, so she unleashes the mob on him and gives them the bloodsport she'd been whipping them up to want. Of course they're going to eat that up. And nobody should be surprised. She's a politician. Manipulating the masses is her job, her vocation, and clearly, she's good at it.

I don't envy those Imperial Navy commanders the position they were in, not even a little. I wouldn't be surprised if she tore each and every one of them a new orifice once she got them and the head of the protection detail in private. But let's be real - she was never in any danger. Not with Aeons on the field for remote assistance, and probably an entire battlegroup on standby within 5LY in case of emergency. Just the assets she had on the field would have been able to keep that Avatar alive long enough to survive anything less than the combined volley-fire of something on the order of a thousand Maelstroms or Tornados - probably closer to fifteen-hundred. Unless the Imperial Navy was so lax that they somehow missed a significant dreadnought group moving into position, along with subcapital assets to distract CONCORD, the only thing that could have possibly threatened her life and the lives of her crew would have been a Drifter incursion.

The only things at risk there, no matter how much people want to claim that a Jovian-tech Entosis Link would have destabilized the ship and made it kill every puppy within a million light-years, were the information that she almost certainly failed to keep from Raisch, and her ego.

Heck, even I was standing ready to provide remote assistance in the event of any distress, but a Marmite Collective fleet decided that exercising their 'war' on my alliance was more important, and reduced my Scimitar to scrap. Other Matari pilots have also reported being attacked by anyone with an excuse, despite offering no hostile actions whatsoever, merely being there to observe the commemoration of a battle where both our nations lost lives.

Honestly, some folks just have no sense of occasion.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#93 - 2015-07-26 17:18:56 UTC
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
But I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasn’t talking about war and bloodshed, but about honour and principles. I know, it is hard for you to understand these two...


See now, I'm going to go ahead and let that slide as a Matari, and as a Sebiestor. I'll even let the slight to Clan Stjörnauga go. And I'll do all of that because I'm sure you're not looking to be so blatantly bent out of shape about being reminded that not only was your Emperor was dumb enough to attack the Jove, but your Empire was so weak-willed and unable to execute God's Will that the Matari threw off your yoke en masse, and have been bloodying your nose ever since.

You'd never get so irked about that sort of thing that you'd stoop to insulting an entire people for the crime of kicking your butt. That's beneath you as a Holder, and it would make you look like some kind of common trash like me. So I'm sure you're not doing that.

No, I'm going to choose to believe that you think I have no concept of honor or principles because I'm a Goon.

Lemme tell ya, your Holy Holderness, I've been personally assured very recently that we are lovely people. You should come party with us some time. I promise, we'll treat you right.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#94 - 2015-07-26 17:32:21 UTC
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
It is the Society of Conscious Thought that has to provide an explanation for its intrusive, inappropriate and arrogant behaviour that not only constituted an offence towards the Empress, but also towards the blood of the martyrs of Mekhios.


The Society presents a capsuleer face to most of the Cluster, but don't forget who they really are. The last time your Empire demanded compliance from the Jove, you not only lost the shortest war in the cluster's history, you got the extra special parting gift of the Minmatar Rebellion.

Go for round 2. Please. Let's see who runs away from your God and Empress this time.
Who could forget what the Society represents? A dying, degenerate race that God has abandoned a long time ago. If need be, the Empire will not again sent an expedition corps to encounter them, but an armada.

But I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasn’t talking about war and bloodshed, but about honour and principles. I know, it is hard for you to understand these two...


Well, I am sorry but I have not seen a single Jovian entity among the Society's ranks...

Maybe there actually are, all wearing tinfoil hats, but I do not think that the burden of proof lies on my shoulders here...
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#95 - 2015-07-26 17:41:36 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:

Actually, you have no idea what Raish was doing. All you have is his word that he is doing nothing illegal, and a codicil which cannot be found in any written Yulai Convention records anywhere.


Yes. We only have his word. His ship was downed on the assumption that he was a clear and present danger, but for that matter we don't even have a statement from the Empress to that effect, either, which means his ship may have been destroyed purely as a product of imperial whim. For that matter, considering that he was withdrawing at the time he was downed, I'm not sure Raish as a present danger, and I'm certainly contesting that he was a clear danger, considering that Circadian Seekers have been using this sort of scanning equipment on pilots for months with seemingly no ill effects.

As to the Yulai Convention, frankly, Goldfinch, you know perfectly well that we just don't have the text. We can shout at each other all day about what we know is in the convention, or what we don't know is in the convention, but you know as well as I: absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Raish appeared to believe that the 9th Codicil was grounds for his actions. As he's an elder mentor of the Society of Conscious Thought, I'm going to assume that he's not an idiot, and has a reasonable grounding in law, especially if he's willing to risk being in harm's way on the grounds of that law.

While I respect your legalistic tendencies, Goldfinch, I think you're arguing this too strongly.

Goldfinch wrote:

You've never personally equipped or used an Entosis Link that can target a Capsuleer ship. How are you suddenly an expert of how they operate? What I find interesting is that even the person whose report you used to determine how Entosis Links work on Capsuleer ships, actually opened fire on Raish's ship, according to the Kill Report. Why do you think that is?


You'd have to ask her. I might also advise not using a fallacy of false authority just after you indicate the capabilities of Raish's Entosis Link can't be knowable to those of us who haven't used it the same way. After all, we have witnessed Circadian Seekers using similar scanning methods for, what, eight months now? Eight months, and we've witnessed no ill effects whatsoever when Circadian Seekers scan ships, stations, asteroids.

Ultimately, what I want is this: not a declaration that her imperial majesty is wrong, because I'd never expect that of the Amarr, but an admission that by the Empress's order may not have been completely in keeping with interstellar law, and may possibly have been somewhat disproportionate to the situation.

Not a binary declaration, but an admission that things may not be absolutely, clearly in keeping with interstellar law, to which the Empire has demonstrably submitted itself as a Yulai Convention signatory.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#96 - 2015-07-26 18:32:19 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
To be honest, if the Head of state tells you to stop, you damn well stop if you're in her space.

Nobody should be allowed to ride roughshod over the sovereignty of a people, certainly not because of something as vague as an opinion on what is and is not an 'existential threat to the cluster'. The SOCT ship was free to use it's regular scanners - it chose to use it's weird ass Entosis link instead.

And it was warned.

In this instance I must concur with Pieter's opinion.

A head of state within their own sovereignty is, or at least should be, the supreme authority.

Especially so within the Empire where sovereign authority is invested in the person of Empress Jamyl herself.
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#97 - 2015-07-26 19:39:14 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
To be honest, if the Head of state tells you to stop, you damn well stop if you're in her space.

Nobody should be allowed to ride roughshod over the sovereignty of a people, certainly not because of something as vague as an opinion on what is and is not an 'existential threat to the cluster'. The SOCT ship was free to use it's regular scanners - it chose to use it's weird ass Entosis link instead.

And it was warned.

In this instance I must concur with Pieter's opinion.

A head of state within their own sovereignty is, or at least should be, the supreme authority.

Especially so within the Empire where sovereign authority is invested in the person of Empress Jamyl herself.

It sounds like if your crewmember tries to prank you you will sell him to some slavery or something.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#98 - 2015-07-26 20:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Comparing the Entosis Link to a "squirt gun" or that it holds little "potential for danger" because it is not a gun is hilarious. This is like saying that a Tachyon Beam Laser is nothing more than a Civilian Handgun and thus can't pierce even a shuttle's shields. This is a gross underestimation and negligent downplaying of its potential for damage.

--

With regards to this, the SCOPE should better put Lina Ambre back to the desk duty. Her's, and Alton Haveri's, reports lack professionalism and contain amateurish mistakes. The last breaking news, for instance, puts the Sarum Prime system into the Throne Worlds constellation. It appears that Lina as well as her supervisors need a lesson in astrogeography and probably yet another pair of eyes to check for such disconcerting mistakes. Unless, of course, there is a ulterior motiv behind this kind of mistakes in the latest reports.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#99 - 2015-07-26 20:49:33 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
With regards to this, the SCOPE should better put Lina Ambre back to the desk duty. Her's, and Alton Haveri's, reports lack professionalism and contain amateurish mistakes. The last breaking news, for instance, puts the Sarum Prime system into the Throne Worlds constellation.


They did just claim that a High-security Kador system was 'Caldari Low-sec'...
Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
#100 - 2015-07-26 20:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Arrendis wrote:
No, I'm going to choose to believe that you think I have no concept of honor or principles because I'm a Goon.
You're a smart bird, aren't you?

P.S.: While I appreciated your history lesson, here's one for you: I am a Khanid holder. We weren't there when Vak'Atioth and the Rebellion happened. From our perspective we always kicked butt, to use your wording, but never experienced to be kicked.