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What was so important to hide in order to violate a Yulai codicil?

Author
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#41 - 2015-07-26 01:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
Matshi Raish wrote:
Empress Jamyl, I say in public that our presence and actions here are lawful under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention authorizes investigation of potential existential threats.

The key phrase here is "investigation of potential existential threats". I saw no potential existential threats to anyone on the field today, only Her Imperial Majesty, her escorts, and a hundred or so capsuleers. This would seem to render his quotation of the Yulai Convention void and moot.

If the Elder Mentor could explain what existential threat he and the SoCT believes the Empress and/or her ship presents and whom, I would love to hear it. I am sure it would be utter nonsense, but I'd still like to hear his justifications.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#42 - 2015-07-26 01:31:58 UTC
I wonder, Shutaq, Raholan, if you're perhaps biased in this situation.

Raish acted provocatively, absolutely, but he did not attack the Empress any more than a dozen other Capsuleers did once she undocked. How many times did ships intercept hers, collide with hers, scan hers? The Empress reported no damage, no system failures, no fault of any type during the engagement of an Entosis Link. Indeed, Raish was withdrawing when the order to engage was given.

Please be sensible about this.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#43 - 2015-07-26 01:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
A scan produces information. Information can be used as a weapon. Simply put, what he did was espionage. Blatant, audacious secret delving for reasons unknown, not unlike what the Sleepers and Drifters were doing just weeks ago in the Empire. The Empress had just delivered a speech outlining how this was a threat.

I think you need to be sensible about this. If I saw you going through the ship schematics on my office desk and your only explanation was 'I think you are dangerous', I'd hit you in the head and escort you out. That is the equivalent of what happened today. You are foolish to believe things could or should have happened any differently.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#44 - 2015-07-26 01:46:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Raish is a spy, an assassin, a thief. These are the comparisons I've heard made today, for an elder mentor of the Society who was withdrawing after having completed his scans.

If I were to break into your home and take pictures of you, it'd unprecedented invasion. If you're in public and I take pictures of you there, you have no recourse at all. If the systems aboard a vessel in space are not secure against the scans that CONCORD clearly doesn't consider worthy of a supect tag, then they are near enough to public.

Let me present you a situation. Shakor is in space, convoying between Rens and Hek for the purpose of delivering a celebratory pony. Between those points, a Sisters of EVE vessel appears at one of the waypoints and, unsolicited, initiates unknown scans on Shakor's ship, saying simply. "These are legal and I have reasons." Shakor destroys the Sister ship. Would you not then say that this was another sign of his warmongering?

Let me present a less hypothetical situation. Admiral Yanala is in low orbit over Caldari Prime. A CONCORD vessel appears in low orbit over the planet, and initiates scans, saying that the captain is within his rights to scan the planet. Yanala destroys the CONCORD ship. Is Yanala not then at least a little bit responsible for what follows?

Frankly, Shutaq, you're betraying your bias on this matter.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-07-26 01:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Kahar Dex wrote:

He was warned several times.

He was asked to state his intentions, for which he did not give adequate response.

For all we know, it was a security breach, or the Mentor may have had devious plans with the information acquired from his scans.

The Empress is in far greater knowledge of the affairs of the Empire than any of us. Let none presume.

Ignoring several warnings, and refusing to state intentions, his scans could have compromised sensitive military data or sensitive Imperial information pertinent to the security of Amarr. Furthermore using entosis links, which are known for their mind-controlled based technology reverse engineered from Drifters.

It was a threat. Plain and simple.

He violated no laws and was not required to comply with orders from the Imperial Navy since he was operating under CONCORD jurisdiction, as all capsuleers do.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2015-07-26 01:57:28 UTC
Why is this even a debate?

The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.

If you're Amarr, you should have no questions regarding her actions.

If you're not Amarr, this was an internal security matter and quite frankly, none of your damn business.

If after these words, you still have a problem, take it up with CONCORD because in their lack of action or statement they have sanctioned this.

I hope I've clarified this. Thank you and let's all try to have a better tomorrow.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Michael Pawlicki
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#47 - 2015-07-26 01:58:10 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
Onzo, Elder Mentor Matshi Raish provided you with that himself.

To quote:
Matshi Raish > Empress Jamyl, I say in public that our presence and actions here are lawful under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention.


And which section of it allows for the use of entosis links on our Empress' vessel? What existential threat was she?


Maybe he was confirming if she was one.
That bodes ill.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#48 - 2015-07-26 01:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
We seem to be ignoring the fact that a device similar to an Entosis Link was utilized; there is no mechanism susceptible to Entosis within any ships that we fly - much less capsules. The only explanation for this exhibited usage is that the Empress possesses something that can either route or contain an infomorph, separate from the standard bodies we use as capsuleers. This is a strange possibility, and one that would hold curious consequences if expanded upon. There is something to the Empress that we don't know; the Society, however, knows something more.
Matshi Raish wrote:
Very well, we have learned what we needed to learn.

If the Empress is an "Existential threat", then we had best be prepared for whatever may come next. Matshi Raish and the Society know more than we do concerning these emergent threats, and we had best pay attention to every event in order to understand more ourselves.

Knowledge is our most powerful ally.

-Uriel
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#49 - 2015-07-26 02:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
The leader of a sovereign nation is obliged to act and order as they see fit within their own nation. Simply put, the entire Empire is the Empress's home, just as the Republic is Shakor's home and Caldari Prime is Yanala's de jure (though, alas, not de facto) home. Yes, Shakor would be within his legal rights to fire upon the Sisters ship. The example with Admiral Yanala, God rest her soul, is a more complicated matter, but I would argue that yes, she has the right to refuse scans from CONCORD. They constitute a search of property, a violation of privacy, and a potential hostile act as the information gained can be used to compromise the security of the individual and ship scanned. I am not biased in this regard.

But yes, I am a citizen of the Empire and I have sworn to uphold and protect the Empire and all of its facets, the Empress especially. Do you seriously expect me, or anyone else who considers themselves an Imperial loyalist, to refuse an order from the Empress herself? Imperial law applies in Imperial space. The Empress's word is Imperial law. CONCORD has no right to dictate what she does, as CONCORD treaty also includes allowances for national sovereignty. The only potential clause that might have saved the Elder Mentor from legal recourse was the codicil he quoted but conveniently neglected to explain just who was threatened and how.

There was no clear justification for Matshi Raish's actions. The Empire took offense to his undiplomatic actions. We took our own undiplomatic actions in return. Deal with it.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Michael Pawlicki
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#50 - 2015-07-26 02:03:58 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
We seem to be ignoring the fact that a device similar to an Entosis Link was utilized; there is no mechanism susceptible to Entosis within any ships that we fly - much less capsules. The only explanation for this exhibited usage is that the Empress possesses something that can either route or contain an infomorph, separate from the standard bodies we use as capsuleers. This is a strange possibility, and one that would hold curious consequences if expanded upon. There is something to the Empress that we don't know; the Society, however, knows something more.

Matshi Raish wrote:
Very well, we have learned what we needed to learn.


If the Empress is an "Existential threat", then we had best be prepared for whatever may come next.

I'd very much like to go down and see what the Society has to say, in addition to a massive apology to Mentor Raish for my assisting in destroying his vessel.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#51 - 2015-07-26 02:05:17 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
A scan produces information. Information can be used as a weapon. Simply put, what he did was espionage. Blatant, audacious secret delving for reasons unknown, not unlike what the Sleepers and Drifters were doing just weeks ago in the Empire. The Empress had just delivered a speech outlining how this was a threat.


You know... 'Blatant' and 'audacious', I'll give you, but considering he did it in plain sight of everyone there... it was hardly 'secret delving'.

We know that the Circadian Seekers can use Entosis links on ships. They scanned The Game is Rigged more than once in ED-L9T before she was destroyed. So obviously, the Society's got a better grasp on this tech than we do. That's hardly shocking - the Society has had Jovian backing, and this tech is blatantly ripped off from the Jovians.

We've all been scanned by it at some point. I've seen titans scanned, no ill-effects. Anything they were going to find on a regular Avatar, I have to assume the Society already knows about.

So what were they looking for? Because whatever it was, she didn't order him executed until he told her he'd gotten it. And if all he needed was the answer to a yes/no question, like 'Do the Amarr know how to use X technology yet?' then killing a capsuleer's meatsuit doesn't exactly prevent that answer from getting passed back.

So why even bother?
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#52 - 2015-07-26 02:09:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
The law, Shutaq, is generally that anything observable from a public space does not require special permissions. The volume within which a public event is occurring is, by necessity, a public space. Essentially, if the SOCT is normally permitted to be in that space, then they are permitted to observe what occurs in that space. The novel use of an Entosis Link evidently constitutes an observation, because CONCORD didn't intervene at all.

As regards the situation, no, I'd never ask you to refuse the Empress's order. I'd ask you to admit that this is damned strange, and that while Raish acted provocatively, the Empress may possibly have acted disproportionately.

Evidently that's beyond you.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#53 - 2015-07-26 02:12:55 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Raish is a spy, an assassin, a thief. These are the comparisons I've heard made today, for an elder mentor of the Society who was withdrawing after having completed his scans.

If I were to break into your home and take pictures of you, it'd unprecedented invasion. If you're in public and I take pictures of you there, you have no recourse at all. If the systems aboard a vessel in space are not secure against the scans that CONCORD clearly doesn't consider worthy of a supect tag, then they are near enough to public.

Let me present you a situation. Shakor is in space, convoying between Rens and Hek for the purpose of delivering a celebratory pony. Between those points, a Sisters of EVE vessel appears at one of the waypoints and, unsolicited, initiates unknown scans on Shakor's ship, saying simply. "These are legal and I have reasons." Shakor destroys the Sister ship. Would you not then say that this was another sign of his warmongering?


And risk the life and health of the pony? Spirits below, that's KoS offense.

Like I've said elsewhere, it frankly doesn't matter to me if this was legal or not. I'm reasonably sure he broke no laws and it was thus an unprovoked murder of his crew, but it doesn't really matter. The biggest guns determine who gets to do what on a field, and in this case the firepower favored the Empress.

I'm more interested in finding out what got her **** in a twist, because it was quite obviously no danger to her ship or crew as he was already leaving. This implies that him getting away with whatever scan data he has was the real threat.

If the Tribal leaders started murdering people over being scanned in public, I'd start having some very pointed questions for them about what they have to hide and I would be hard-pressed not to demand answers, pony or not.

Of course, I don't tend to fall to my knees and lose sight of any human being's capacity to be a bastard just because they become a head of state, so I guess I can't relate to the Amarrian side of things.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#54 - 2015-07-26 02:16:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
And indeed, the fact that the attack order was called after Elder Mentor Raish had completed his operation is curious; what did he do to the Empress? The beam he utilized was beyond that of the Entosis link fitted to his ship. In fact, its effect was identical to that of the Seeker and Drifter mechanisms that the Links were derived from.

I have loyalty to the Society; I wish to know why they have taken such strange and direct action.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2015-07-26 02:24:22 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
And indeed, the fact that the attack order was called after Elder Mentor Raish had completed his operation is curious; what did he do to the Empress? The beam he utilized was beyond that of the Entosis link fitted to his ship. In fact, its effect was identical to that of the Seeker and Drifter mechanisms that the Links were derived from.

I have loyalty to the Society; I wish to know why they have taken such strange and direct action.


Look above for your answer.

And ask CONCORD.

The EMPRESS does not answer to you.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-07-26 02:25:02 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Why is this even a debate?

The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.

The Amarr Empire is a CONCORD signatory. Just because you people believe that an invisible supreme being for whose evidence there exists no serious scientific proof allows certain people among your number to do pretty much whatever you wish doesn't mean that you can go about violating CONCORD's charter on a whim here in the real world.

And let's face it, if this had been anyone else - Shakor or Roden, in particular - the Empire would be clamouring for blood.

Also, Mokk, a personal note - you probably shut the hell up whenever matters of the Empire are afoot. Don't think your alleged sudden rediscovery of your roots excuses your tenure with the Angel Cartel.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#57 - 2015-07-26 02:36:47 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Why is this even a debate?

The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.


Because she ain't even given me my bloody coffee yet! I sent the invoice hours ago, it doesn't take that long to sent an order in to the cafe in YA0 station.
Lord Kailethre
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
#58 - 2015-07-26 03:13:48 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Why is this even a debate?

The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.


Because she ain't even given me my bloody coffee yet! I sent the invoice hours ago, it doesn't take that long to sent an order in to the cafe in YA0 station.


You're really craving that caffeine, aren't you?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#59 - 2015-07-26 03:21:09 UTC
Lord Kailethre wrote:
You're really craving that caffeine, aren't you?


It's the principle of the thing!

Principally... cuz yeah, I am. Stupid joneses....
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#60 - 2015-07-26 05:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Since when is activating an Entosis Link on any object "mere scanning"? It is an aggressive act, targeted at compromising a ship's, station's or otherwise system's integrity and to gain control over or allow others to take control over it. Every Null sec empire, small or large, pretty much agrees on that and reactions partially brutal force to any other capsuleer trying that on their structures. And Mentor Raish did attack her Empress' ship more than 4 times despite formal, polite requests to cease and desist. I find this hypocrisy highly pathetic.

UI Improvement Collective

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