EVE General Discussion

If they can fly a almost fully t2 mod AF out of the box. They will complain that the game is too hard because its ages before they can fly a battleship. They will complain even more that they don't have the isk to even buy the modules for the ship!

A t2 fitted rifter is about 10M. A cheap fitted meta rifter can be as cheap as 1M and still be fairly effective. In fact you can fly in pvp in a few hours! (on a new account my first pvp kill was like 6 hours or something)

However do you really think the person that has played eve for just few hours is going to do anything good no matter what the ship they have. They don't even know what lowsec is. Or gun tracking skills or [insert thing here].

Adding more skill points will *not* address the fun out of the blocks aspect of this game. For the very simple reason it has nothing to do with skills.

This has been done before. How much more do you plan on giving new players? Just curious. Maybe we can just cut to the end instead of this periodic whining.

I'm saying that the gap for the most part simply doesn't exist, and where it exists, it is irrelevant. The gap does not exist and is not growing over time because the entire concept is an illusion that does not apply to the (virtual) reality of EVE. The way skills work, the way they're trained, the way the SP is translated into ability, and the way that ability translates into effect on the game world means that the supposed gap is only ever an aspect of a fundamental misunderstanding of the game.

The gap only exists in the game of Eveboard.com Top Trumps. Eveboard.com Top Trumps is not a game that actually matters to EVE Online (other than maybe in a deeply layered meta-sense of playing the character bazaar market for ISK). The problem is that the Top Trumps version is how many other games are played, so new players incorrectly assume that this will hold true for EVE as well, when it does nothing of the kind.


Now, that is not to say that there is no gap that separates players, but the gaps that exist have little to nothing to do with SP, and are only tangentially related to their newness.

A new player in EVE most likely faces a gap in two areas: knowledge and social connections. Once they overcomes those two, SP ceases to be relevant to what they can engage with in the game. With the right knowledge and social ties, they can take part and be successful in any activity EVE has to offer, irrespective of how much SP they have. This works both ways: a player who does not have those two will be severely limited in what they can take part in and be successful at, again irrespective of SP. A knowledgeable, connected newbie with 90k SP trained can utterly and completely thrash a unknowledgeable solo player with 150M SP.

Mechanical solutions — notably tutorials — can somewhat aid in the knowledge area, and at least give some gentle nudges towards better social connections, but at the end of the day, mechanics cannot solve the gap most new players face; SP mechanical alterations least of all. If anything, SP-mechanical alterations are quite likely to keep new players away from the two things they desperately need the most, as they might reinforce an already false focus on a tiny statistical irrelevance that makes the player think they're “ready” to overcome those gaps through brute force. This tactic will always fail; it will always lead the new player astray; it is not a good solution to… well… anything, really.

I don't even think the real argument is even about closing the gap.

It's more about giving new players a boost so they're able to have a few more options available to them earlier, so the game is more interesting to them at the start.

That's fair enough, and is actually a more informed concerned than any talk about SP.

The main problem there is that there are tons of options available from pretty much day 1 — it's just that older players have a tendency to fill the poor newbies' heads with griefer nonsense along the familiar pattern of “don't do X until you have Y,” and thereby either invent or reinforce preconceived notions of barriers to gameplay that aren't really there. Another issue is that many of the options aren't that well presented (if at all) to the newbies, but the tutorials and opportunities systems are slowly chipping away at that problem. Hell, they're so poorly presented that even many old players aren't fully familiar with all the options available.

Even so, it just comes back to the same actual gap: knowledge and connections. Knowing what there is to do, and knowing who to ask for guidance or support. Mixing those quickly evolves the knowing how to do something (or, just as importantly, knowing not to do it because it's not to the newbie's taste).

In a lot of other MMOs players tend to rush through the levels to get to maximum level and the end game.


In this game the skill tree is so large that it can't be anything to do with an end game in itself.

So the only thing I could consider end game in this game is when you get to a position in the game where you have achieved your goals. When you've done that you're playing the end game.

My mistake was to use the word "endgame", actually what I mean is a kind of comfort zone, which of course you have to leave from time to time.

I'm going to jump in here with my opinion having not read a word of this thread.

I WANT THE OPTION OF STARTING WITH ZERO SKILL POINTS AND NO SKILLS INJECTED!

As for that other stuff. Whatever. Starting with more SP is a slippery slope in my opinion. It won't change anything. Just add to the already out of hand SP creep we have in this game due to characters not being locked to the acct that created them.

Mr Epeen

The point, that went right over your head apparently, is that with an even more significant barrier the game flourished. Now it is...struggling is the common refrain. How can it be "The Barrier" when in fact it HAS BEEN REDUCED? (emphasized that last part for the apparently brain dead)

You have 14-40 days less training time (i.e. no learning skills AND you got the benefits of the learning skills...we all did). Also you got neural remaps, IIRC, we did not have that early on. Picking your race and blood line was often very significant in terms of training. I have 1 and exactly 1 Caldari character. Why? Because Achura/Stargazers had awesome skills if you wanted an industrial type character. After that with neural remaps I went with Gallente.

People like you lack the institutional knowledge...the human capital, if you will, about the game.

Will rebalancing starting SP help with player retention/bring in new players? Probably not. Because that has never been an issue in the past. In fact, for most of us Eve players the learning curve while often the subject of jokes was also something we were, in a way, proud of. Kind of a "look I made it over that." But hey, maybe new players now are just Wilbur Milktoasts who need to have their hands held and their poo-poo patted just to log in or something.

I think this whole idea is a complete canard. ZOMG we need to boost new player SP so they'll stay in the game. Never mind that with an even longer training barrier before "fun" in the past was also present with rising subscriptions and log ons. Whatever the problem is, it is not SP. You are deluding yourself if you think this is the problem...and if I'm correct you are wasting resources.

BTW, the removal of the learning skills, in the end was hailed as a good move.

New players did not have to train them (and you think AWU to V is awful...try training 4 or 5 rank 3 skills to 4 along with their entry level skills to 5 )

Older players got those SP back and could "spend" them anywhere (Hello Logistics V without the training time).

Everybody got their attributes boosted to account for this change--i.e. training times did NOT increase.

Just a history lesson for you delicate younger players. Something you might want to consider when discussing this further. In fact, it was considered one of the few changes that violated Malcanis' Law. Something else you special snowflake noobs should consider too (don't worry I know you wont...its the curse of youth, you think you know it all when in reality you know very little).