These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Starting skills levels should increase for new players
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#1 - 2015-07-21 19:33:20 UTC
New players today should start with more skill points then new players started with 10 years ago.

As the tech level of ships increase and CCP creates new technology, needed to keep the old players engaged, the starting skill points of new players should increase accordingly, and the training cost of some lower technologies to lvl 5 should be accelerated for them.

Today, anyone starting the game should be able to fly any racial T1 frigates at lvl 4 when they start, as well as other few core skills that can be started at level 3 or 4.

In a few years, every starting player should also have cruiser at level 4, and so on, when/if CCP adds a Tech 4 technology, with the associated skills ladders to get into those.

CCP needs to start reducing the skill gap between new players and older players without having older players loosing their access to cutting edge technology.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#2 - 2015-07-21 19:45:08 UTC
This is already being considered.

I think CCP Fozzie was the one that mentioned it.

/thread

also Features & Ideas Discussion has a stickied thread for skillpoint discussion.
flakeys
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-07-21 19:47:30 UTC
Saisin wrote:
New players today should start with more skill points then new players started with 10 years ago.

.



Uhm , they allready do actually Roll.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2015-07-21 19:55:43 UTC
stoicfaux
#5 - 2015-07-21 19:59:43 UTC
Bah, just do a skill tiericide. Consolidate fitting skills, smooth out the curves and get rid of any stupid prereqs. With a skill refund in place, it shouldn't be a big deal to implement.[1]


[1] Not counting the whine-storm, but that's a people problem, not a technical problem.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2015-07-21 20:51:19 UTC
Saisin wrote:
CCP needs to start reducing the skill gap between new players and older players without having older players loosing their access to cutting edge technology.

The Skillpoint System and You

tldr...
- beyond the "core skills" having more skillpoints does not give a straight and relable increase in power that cannot be overcome. It merely gives extra flexibility in what a player can do tactically (which also does not give a straight and relable advantage).

- there is nothing wrong with putting new players at a disadvantage. It forces them to consider other options beyond "grind, get skills, get best possible ship." Speaking from experience, those players tend to die the most miserably because they cannot fathom why having "the best" is still not good enough.



Also... just because Tech 3 exists (which I fully expect to be nerfed within the next year) it does not mean that Tech 1 ships are something that should just be skipped over. They are still relevant.

How did you Veterans start?
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#7 - 2015-07-21 20:53:11 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

The Skillpoint System and You

tldr...
- beyond the "core skills" having more skillpoints does not give a straight and relable increase in power that cannot be overcome. It merely gives extra flexibility in what a player can do tactically (which also does not give a straight and relable advantage).

- there is nothing wrong with putting new players at a disadvantage. It forces them to consider other options beyond "grind, get skills, get best possible ship." Speaking from experience, those players tend to die the most miserably because they cannot fathom why having "the best" is still not good enough.



Also... just because Tech 3 exists (which I fully expect to be nerfed within the next year) it does not mean that Tech 1 ships are something that should just be skipped over. They are still relevant.



Relevant

http://i.imgur.com/7UktVQR.jpg
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#8 - 2015-07-21 20:54:30 UTC
A better solution would to just bring T3's down to T2's and just provide them with better utility options as T3's, and at greater cost for it. Why make T1's worthless, then just SP polevault over them?

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#9 - 2015-07-21 21:18:10 UTC
No, it should not.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#10 - 2015-07-21 21:36:09 UTC
One wonders why a "must have" skill is even in the game. Or at least, why a "must have" skill is ever a requirement for anything.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2015-07-21 21:48:38 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
One wonders why a "must have" skill is even in the game. Or at least, why a "must have" skill is ever a requirement for anything.

It is a pretty long list of skills, depending on what one considers "must have".


Example, my "core skills" list:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5606050#post5606050
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-07-21 22:09:03 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
One wonders why a "must have" skill is even in the game. Or at least, why a "must have" skill is ever a requirement for anything.


Think of it this way:
You're learning breathing 1 while in the womb. Then you decided "**** it" I'm gonna learn differential equations 1 first. You were born 9 months later and you don't know how to breath.Straight

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-07-21 23:38:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Thing is it doesn't matter what is given. Give this guy 10 times more skill points to beginners than he wants. I guarentee if EVE survives it there will be another OP asking for more. I'm hoping CCP doesn't give to the "we want more easier" crowd. They will always want more regardless.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#14 - 2015-07-21 23:46:10 UTC
I just wish more people would train writing skills more effectively. Wy haz skillz? Let me think on that one....

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
stoicfaux
#15 - 2015-07-21 23:57:00 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
One wonders why a "must have" skill is even in the game. Or at least, why a "must have" skill is ever a requirement for anything.

I posit that there are no "must have" skills. Show me a skill that is a must have for ship combat and mining and trading and manufacturing and ship spinning, etc. i.e. some skill that is a must have for all EVE professions.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sylveria Relden
#16 - 2015-07-22 00:26:21 UTC
Saisin wrote:

CCP needs to start reducing the skill gap between new players and older players without having older players loosing their access to cutting edge technology.


This is the "meat" of the matter, and always has been. People who join the game "now" think they should automatically be able to pit themselves against those whom have millions of skill points invested in their pilots over years of training.

I disagree. And I'm not a "bittervet", either.

Sure, there's a gap- and there always will be. Games like WoW may allow you to buy some token so you don't have to "grind to max level", except in EVE there is no "max level". There's only a percentage bonus based on skill point training that offers you an advantage against those who haven't trained in those lines- but nothing is guaranteed even with this bonus. You still have the opportunity to win regardless of your skill level. What do you expect? That you go into a battle and ask the other guy to remove his helmet and body armor so you can shoot him? Seriously? Um, yeah the other guy has learned over time to protect himself and how to do so- all the while learning how to take you down quicker.

You want to pit yourself against vets? Go for it, there's nothing stopping you- and sure there will be an advantage- kind of like someone who's played pro football for 4 years is obviously going to beat out someone coming from a high school varsity team.

It's called "experience". It's why "skill points" exist to be begin with- the more you practice at something (hopefully) the better you become at it.

People may disagree with this, but it doesn't negate well established fact.

TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#17 - 2015-07-22 00:35:56 UTC
No, I disagree. New players need to be educated that this is a long term game rather than "L100 NOAW!!", where planning and knowledge = success, moreso than skillpoints or gear. That its about choices and consequences. And beyond that theyre on their own. That this is a game about being thrown into the deep end and saying sink or swim.

To give more sps really helps older players creating alts moreso than noobs. Because they DONT know, they have no clue how to maximize stuff because of game mechanics like us vets do. And frankly learning that is something we want. Those who do it faster, better or innovatively should be rewarded!! To take that way destroys the essence of Eve.

The idea that noobs really need more handholding is stupid. Frankly the new player experience should be a page of text explaining the harshness of Eve, the asshatery and BS. that you start with nothing and have to work for everything the hard way. That choices have consequences. And that this isnt like other games.

They should be educated, not given SP or ships or isk. And then let loose in the game. Yes this means player retention likely will suffer because frankly people are stupid. They want easy mode and others to tell them step by step how to win. They dont want to figure things out or even care too. Its not worth their "time".

That figuring things out, instead of using Google or getting the best and latest, but enjoying the figuring out for myself, is the ONLY reason Ive stayed in this game for 12 years. I enjoy that because other games are spoonfed to you and it frankly SUCKS. So no dont make alt creation easier for people.

Educate the true noobs and then set them free.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Darth Terona
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2015-07-22 00:36:50 UTC
While I agree with the above post, some things should just be given on day one.

If you pick pvp carrier you get the ability to fly t1 frig of your race complete with long range and short range weapon variants and enuff skill to deploy drones. Also should be able to operate scrams webs mwd and afterburners out if the box. And be able to equip and use your races favorite tank variety. Lvl 1 would suffice.

If you want to mission or explore or manufacture or trade, you should have simular skill packages so that when you first get in the game, you can immediately start doing whatever it is that Drew you to the game in the first place.

Having to wait about for two weeks or more before you can even try entry level positions puts off a lot of people.

Hell first time I played eve was In 2005. I walked away because it felt I was paying my first month to be able to play next month.

After your hooked and can do some things, training is t so bad.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#19 - 2015-07-22 00:43:19 UTC
Sylveria Relden wrote:
Saisin wrote:

CCP needs to start reducing the skill gap between new players and older players without having older players loosing their access to cutting edge technology.


This is the "meat" of the matter, and always has been. People who join the game "now" think they should automatically be able to pit themselves against those whom have millions of skill points invested in their pilots over years of training.

I disagree. And I'm not a "bittervet", either.

Sure, there's a gap- and there always will be. Games like WoW may allow you to buy some token so you don't have to "grind to max level", except in EVE there is no "max level". There's only a percentage bonus based on skill point training that offers you an advantage against those who haven't trained in those lines- but nothing is guaranteed even with this bonus. You still have the opportunity to win regardless of your skill level. What do you expect? That you go into a battle and ask the other guy to remove his helmet and body armor so you can shoot him? Seriously? Um, yeah the other guy has learned over time to protect himself and how to do so- all the while learning how to take you down quicker.

You want to pit yourself against vets? Go for it, there's nothing stopping you- and sure there will be an advantage- kind of like someone who's played pro football for 4 years is obviously going to beat out someone coming from a high school varsity team.

It's called "experience". It's why "skill points" exist to be begin with- the more you practice at something (hopefully) the better you become at it.

People may disagree with this, but it doesn't negate well established fact.



I want to reply to this as it was being typed as I was typing mine.

Yes, experience is THE huge factor that vets have gained, not just SPs. I entirely agree here. I can also so that there are very new players that are better than me at things in this game. Where my SP mean **** ALL. Why? Because they do something more than I do. I may know the general nature of it, how to put 2 and 2 together faster to catch up quicker, or how to avoid it or use it a bit better with a better overall grasp of some mechanics.

But its the doing that matters. And as CCP introduces newer ships, tactics or gameplay if I dont keep up and do it I will be at a disadvantage in those areas. New players also need to know this.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Orlacc
#20 - 2015-07-22 00:45:00 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
No, I disagree. New players need to be educated that this is a long term game rather than "L100 NOAW!!", where planning and knowledge = success, moreso than skillpoints or gear. That its about choices and consequences. And beyond that theyre on their own. That this is a game about being thrown into the deep end and saying sink or swim.

To give more sps really helps older players creating alts moreso than noobs. Because they DONT know, they have no clue how to maximize stuff because of game mechanics like us vets do. And frankly learning that is something we want. Those who do it faster, better or innovatively should be rewarded!! To take that way destroys the essence of Eve.

The idea that noobs really need more handholding is stupid. Frankly the new player experience should be a page of text explaining the harshness of Eve, the asshatery and BS. that you start with nothing and have to work for everything the hard way. That choices have consequences. And that this isnt like other games.

They should be educated, not given SP or ships or isk. And then let loose in the game. Yes this means player retention likely will suffer because frankly people are stupid. They want easy mode and others to tell them step by step how to win. They dont want to figure things out or even care too. Its not worth their "time".

That figuring things out, instead of using Google or getting the best and latest, but enjoying the figuring out for myself, is the ONLY reason Ive stayed in this game for 12 years. I enjoy that because other games are spoonfed to you and it frankly SUCKS. So no dont make alt creation easier for people.

Educate the true noobs and then set them free.



This. The appeal of EVE is it's difficulty. The fact is that there are some folks that will never "get" EVE no matter how many gifts you shower on them. EVE will always be a niche game for people who demand a harsh, gritty environment that it takes modicum of smarts to survive in.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
123Next pageLast page