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[OOC] Query on participation within IGS

Author
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-07-20 13:14:42 UTC
First of all, I should make it clear that none of this query is focussed on the one poster quoted. The quote provoked some reflection on my part, and I wish to gather some advice before further participation.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5909059#post5909059

Utari Onzo wrote:
Would you mind presenting your credentials as an official spokesman of the official Republic Fleet and not a capsuleer corporation named conveniently?


I am a long time role-player recently moved from another MMO, and whilst I have read IGS with interest for some time, the above question challenged my assumptions about participation here. As always when joining a new community, it is wise to get the views of the existing members clear in one’s mind.

Role-playing is about creating interaction and content within the broad lore of a game’s stated environment. In conceiving my character and corporation, I hoped to be able to contribute a different voice: it seems apparent that the majority of RP is done within an Amarr/Amarr aligned context, and that the lore tends to be polarising (not unexpected given the PvP structure). I hoped to take the position that the Republic Fleet is the least tribal government entity and whilst divisions exist therein, it is more oriented towards the peace shattered by the Elder Fleet. Rather than be another Matari shouting ’slavers’ at all things Amarr, I conceived a more diplomatic approach within the Fleet structure that could provide nuance and discussion in the longer term. I hoped over time, that IGS regulars would come to know and trust this approach.

Now, if it is frowned upon to adopt an affiliation with an NPC organisation for the purposes of developing storyline (which of course is never going to be binding on lore, but is another way for players to create and develop their own content) then my approach will not be welcome. The challenge implicit in the quote noted above seems to indicate that I have over-stepped some boundary recognised by IGS.

I recognise that, unusually for RP forums, IGS tolerates a fair amount of OOC conversation. Nonetheless, we are all ‘conveniently named capsuleer corporations’ here. IC, the challenge for credentials makes little sense - the thesis we adopt as RPers for our interactions is that our characters are as presented. The message I conveyed with my post, for example, was environmental colour based on what we know to be likely - the other races will be getting new battleships too. It is unlikely that CCP will hold RP launches for all - I thought to provide a little spin on an otherwise mundane series of events.

Perhaps this is misguided. I would appreciate being told if my conception is wrong and IGS does not condone characters presenting views from NPC corporations or entities. (Such a rule would have a fairly drastic impact on the theological discussions here, but I can see why such a position would be taken).

I apologise if I have got things wrong, and will be happy to absent myself from the forum should I have transgressed. I appreciate any advice from the established members of the forum.

NB: Noting that this is an OOC post, I would expect it to be moved to a more appropriate forum, but fear that elsewhere I would not get any replies from the people I need advice from the most. Again, apologies if this is considered a derailment.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#2 - 2015-07-20 15:11:02 UTC
Respectfully,

You were making a statement on behalf of the Republic Fleet. This is a large NPC organisation that CCP reguarly makes IC statements for in IC news posts on the community website. Unless I'm mistaken, the Republic Fleet also has a character you can mail in game who, the mail content and yoir faction standings providing, will mail back and any reply can be considered the official IC position of that faction.

On this basis, it's considered god modding to attempt to speak for an NPC faction on an official basis. However, you can speak in an assumption/unofficial basis such as "I believe the Republic Fleet would respond in xxxxxxx fashion". You can also speak in general terms such as "The Amarr Empire/Citizens would never accept xxx" None of these is attempting to place an oficial position on an entity CCP can, and does, post IC information on behalf of.

In regards to your position, no problems with that. We get a lot of abuse as Amarr RPers IC so it's refreshing seeing a difference, again it's literally just trying to present it as an official position of the Republic Fleet without CCP's ok that I and my Character took afront to.

That aside, please don't disappear from the IGS. There are many other ways for your character to demonstrate their beliefs, and stance, on a given subject and win influence for it. We love new folk to the community and I confidently speak when I say we all want people to RP the way they want without breaking what few golden rules of etiquette our community has.

Feel free to hit me a mail any time ooc or IC (you'd be suprised at the ic response depending on how a mail is worded to him)

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-07-20 15:28:00 UTC
Thank you very much for your guidance. It is much appreciated.

I shall rethink my approach.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#4 - 2015-07-20 15:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaret Victorian
Hello there,

I see that you like roleplaying. It is fun, espacially in EVE, where we all can create our own story and involve players in it.

It's okay to make mistakes. EVE is more than 10 years old and its lore is huge. I remember, when I first tried to rp I was very afraid to make some stupid mistakes that will contradict prime fiction's lore or history or culture. I still am, but I am more experienced now.

Eve is a strange game - in order to start doing anything besides dieing constantly you have to read stuff to gain initial knowledge. What I did was simple - I was reading through each and every guide on roleplaying in Evelopedia or Backstage. it was a little bit scary at first because of the amount of text and history, but turned out pretty much okay.

With that in mind, I don't know if you read some of the articles, but just in case I will point you to the one I started from. That is the one.

You may notice the set of basic rules every roleplayer respects and follows. Some of them are more important than others. I will quote:

Quote:
Let CCP Play the NPCs - CCP and CCP alone have control of the NPC organizations. You are So-and-so, Important Poobah of the Ministry of War? No, you aren't. CCP could come out with a new piece of PF at any time that completely contradicts you. You can always claim to be anything, either from insanity, trickery or pretence, but always know that it's not true.


This is one of the most important things in EVERP. Every player in eve is supposed to be an independent capsuleer. There are state capsuleers which are usually played by devs, but we, as players, cannot claim any authority of Empire or Major corporations and factions.

You may notice that the name of the corporation I am in contains one of the titles of major Caldari Corps - "Zainou". In this case we do not act as spokesmen for this corporation, but rather as some semi-independent contractors. I should probably call my CEO to elaborate on that kind of RP.

I hope I helped you Smile Good luck and happy RP!
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-07-20 15:35:13 UTC

Dear spokesman for the Secretariat General of the Republic Fleet,

We have seen misunderstandings like this occur due to missing paperwork and misfiled credentials. Our work as a solicitor frequently involves tedious research on government databases and many such records can be stored on paper with no digital backups.

We are certain we will be able to locate your credentials. Please give us a day to conduct our research and we can forward you digital versions of any relevant paperwork we dig up.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#6 - 2015-07-20 15:45:22 UTC
Hi Haruchai! I for one have really liked your entrance - you seem like a good RPer and as far as I'm concerned you're very welcome! The Matari RP scene seems to need some new energy right now (in my horribly uninformed opinion) and it seems like you've got it!

Your problem is similar to the one I skirt alongside, to be honest. As players we basically can't take on a role that has any influence in the storyline without actually holding influence in the storyline. EVE is different in a roleplaying sense from a number of other MMOs because of the way that players in the game can shape events in lore, and the way we can interact with the game world. You can interact with NPC actors, run by CCP developers, and they can answer questions about who does what. Unless they're going to agree with you on your role within the hierarchy, there are plenty of places that we as players can't really go.

My own experience sort of skirts the same line, like I said. Scherezad is employed by Lai Dai - Indirectly. Specifically, she's employed by Lai Dai Research Biomedical and Cybernetic. I've emphasized that my work with Lai Dai is in no way related to the overall policy of the corporation or its efforts. I also make a fairly sharp distinction between the efforts that Scherezad makes for Lai Dai (AI researcher) versus what she does in space (proud subcontractor for I-RED, Ishukone-affiliated).

It can take a little effort to get things right, and that's okay! I think the big problem you're encountering is that you're claiming to speak for the Republic Fleet. There are already NPC actors that do this! People can also look at the corp you've developed and see how new it is - if it says it in game, that's what it is (a general rule in EVE that's not *always* true, but expect to be called on any deviations from time to time). So you're conflicting with pre-existing stuff, and more importantly, you're claiming authority.

There are lots of places you can take these ideas, though! Being the Secretariat for the Republic Fleet is a bit much, but you can operate in parallel - perhaps as an independent branch of the Fleet Secretariat, a deniable asset that collects intel, provides advice, and where needed, logistical and combat support in space. Grind missions to get high standings with those organizations, get some jump clones in important places - patrol the Republic border and nab pirates/criminals you spot! If you're feeling brave, extend your patrols out into low sec republican space to shoot at blinkies. Don't be the Secretariat, but act as its right hand.

If you're more industrialist and peaceful, you can still pull this off - you're part of a logistical arm of the Fleet Secretariat perhaps. Supplying material to the Fleet, moving troops and cargo about, scanning and doing intel work. This way you could still talk about being a supporter of the Republic, and affiliated with the fleet - and doing important work or it! - while avoiding claiming authority that you can't back up with in-game reasons.

I know that EVE is sort of strange in the MMO-roleplaying universe in that it requires players actually do the things in space if they want to the credit for their roleplaying position. It's a big change from most other MMOs that let you claim positions and RP within it! Certainly more restrictive, but once you're settled into the rhythms of EVE it's actually a lot more rewarding. I have a hangar full of computer cores, salvaged drones, Elite AIs, etc, all gathered up from roleplaying things that I've been through; I have personnel as actual game items. My roleplayed accomplishments have a sense of reality to them that I just don't get anywhere else because of this. And, when you're actually acknowledged by the NPC actors, it's roleplaying *gold*.

Serve the Republic Fleet with your character. Get out there, patrol the borders, work hard. Post (occasional) reports to the IGS on what you've been up to, mingle with other minmatar characters, get involved with the other players. You'll be welcomed by everyone, I'm sure, and when your effort gets you noticed by the actual Republic Fleet? It's gold. All worth it.

Feel free to say hi, i'd be happy to RP sometime if you want to!
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#7 - 2015-07-20 15:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
The RP environment of EVE is a lot different from other MMO communities, due to the unique nature of the game.

You say that the IGS 'tolerates a lot of OOC conversations', which is actually completely untrue. The IGS tolerates no OOC conversations. The conversations you see on the IGS are, in fact, IC ones. (and when I see people blatantly breaking the barrier, by prefacing their post as OOC and so on, for my own part I report the post to the moderators).

EVE is a full-time in-character game. It does not have the split between in-character activities and out-of-character activities that other MMOs have. OOCers doing their thing out in null sec are still part of the universe in EVE, and their actions are still considered in-character.

On this same front, as a single shard universe where there is still an active developer live events team, the developers have a consistent involvement with the game's lore (even just the average patch is, typically, in-character. Ship remodels and rebalances are typically seen as retrofits). The developers actually create and play IC representatives of lore factions, and frequently respond to direct communication by players. The official spokesperson for the Republic Fleet is Heder Elislar, who you could actually mail and potentially receive a response.

In other MMOs, the lack of any direct involvement of the developers and storywriters means that players are forced to take the Game Master position themselves, and to thus themselves represent the NPC factions. I know how this goes, in another game I was RPing as a senior member of a nation's government. This is a necessity in other MMOs, because absolutely nothing would happen if players didn't step up to take the GM position themselves and act as stand-ins for the otherwise unresponsive NPC factions. EVE, however, still has the developers acting as the Game Masters and representing the factions. Therefore, by us attempting to represent those factions, we are presuming stances that they have not confirmed to have. We are claiming authority while having none, and it is very frequent that the actual dev characters/factions act in ways contrary to those claimed by player characters.

Essentially, in EVE, players are almost unilaterally understood to be independent. Indeed, lore explicitly defines players as independent operatives, with the CONCORD Capsuleer Pilot Act described in EVE Source. Characters who are part of the PvP militias are considered privateers and mercenaries, rather than members of the military (hence why it is called a militia). Player characters essentially stand for themselves and whatever organizations they themselves create. You cannot represent an NPC government or military, but you can create your own corporations and represent those. As an example, my organization, the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris, is an independent paramilitary capsuleer organization that fights on behalf of the Amarr Empire. We cannot speak for Amarr itself, but we do speak for ourselves. I am a diplomat, but I am a diplomat for PIE rather than Amarr.


Now, with all above said, I for one have enjoyed your RP. You seem like a high quality RPer, just one that has run into the issue that many RPers have when coming to EVE. It is a very different environment from any other MMO out there, because it is a full-time rather than a part-time IC environment. If I were you, what I would suggest is simply carrying on with what you do but altering it a bit into being an independent mission rather than a direct government-authorized mission. You don't speak with authority for the actual Republic Fleet, but you have created an independent corporation that strives to speak and act in its defense on the forum of interstellar public opinion. A privately-owned enterprise acting in pursuit of your goal.

You've mentioned the Pakhshi Peace Conference before in your posts. As an example, that conference was created not as an official entity capable of enforcing change, but rather as an independent initiative, similar to many such conferences that have happened around the world RL. What it was was a bunch of people gathering together to talk about things, and then presenting their findings to the world's governments. We don't speak for the governments, but we do speak to the governments, suggesting changes and hoping that they will listen. View us, the players, as the grass roots communities that gather together as private citizens to support our desired politics and nations.

Essentially: Content creation is perfectly fine, but because CCP themselves create and move the actual NPC factions, the content creation of player characters is kept to the small form. One cannot speak for an entire nation, but we can speak for smaller territories, like clans or subclans within the Republic's tribes, or corporations within the State's megacorps, or noble vassals of the Amarrian Heir families. We can speak for the paramilitaries and PMCs we create to fight on behalf of the nations, but not for the militaries themselves.

I hope this helps, and I hope you are not discouraged from participating in EVE RP. It is a different environment, but that different environment is what makes it a refreshing change, IMO, from every other MMO out there. We absolutely do need more Minmatar RPers. I recommend you join the channel Minmatar.OOC in game, as well as the RP channel The Standing Place, to get in touch with other minmatar RPers.
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-07-20 15:52:41 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Everything I wanted to say about RP in EVE.

Nissui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-07-20 16:06:58 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
The developers actually create and play IC representatives of lore factions, and frequently respond to direct communication by players. The official spokesperson for the Republic Fleet is Heder Elislar, who you could actually mail and potentially receive a response.

Samira, along with everyone else, has said everything I could and more. I will echo the quoted statement above, and suggest extending it to player corps and alliances who you feel your character would be inclined to interact with. In-character solicitations by mail are something I have generally had good luck with, and there are the out-of-character channels in the game for coordinating interactions. If you feel I may be of assistance, feel free to drop me a line.

Keep at it!
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#10 - 2015-07-20 16:11:22 UTC
Samira's nailed it pretty much exactly!

It's worth noting that it's certainly possible to be the exemplar of a faction or a viewpoint without taking the cloak of that faction; for instance, Antolliere's Liberty Vanguard is fairly clearly a GalFed loyalist group; Pyre Falcon play the questionable-ethics-Caldari-PMC angle, PIE and CVA play various sides of the Amarr expansionist coin, and so on.

Also, on the current most-RP-is-Amarr-centered bit, there are a few elements at play. The first is that the longest-lived RP groups are both Amarr in origin; the second is that the current, Drifter-related plotline ties very closely with some strange happenings involving the Amarr empress; the last is that CCP tends to wander between factions in its story arcs, and Amarr hasn't been up for a while. The last major arcs were the Midular assassination arc (Gallente and Republic), and Heth and Caldari Prime (Caldari and Gallente), and there are also periodic arcs involving the pirate factions.

But yes; more Minmatar roleplayers would be good. :) Stick with it!

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#11 - 2015-07-20 16:40:09 UTC
Well, I see my fellow RP-ers have been helpful already.

I will only add that because of the scam tolerance within EVE, that a lot of vets will take the "See it before I believe it." approach, even when you're not claiming to be an official for RF or something.

Also, someone mentioned backstage already, go check it out if you have not: http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#12 - 2015-07-20 16:52:26 UTC
Thank you guys for turning out.

For the record, outside of the issue we've cleared, OP I think your post was solid. Sami's post nailed it better then I ever could too, please continue providing more excellent posts OP :)

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-07-20 18:08:12 UTC
My thanks to everyone for their kind advice and detailed thoughts.

I have much to ponder. The time you have taken to explain things is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.