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The Tragedy of Sana Clarret
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Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#21 - 2015-07-16 21:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
In Light's Name

Samira Kernher wrote:
Mokk is the kind of person to whom a slave should never be sold. Anyone who would consider TCMCs humane doesn't know the meaning of the word.

Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves: Holders and Holders only. To allow anyone else to engage in it is a crime against God and it leads to the extreme abuses we have seen by capsuleers over the last decade.

Samira,

you're not even half a decade—not to speak about generations—away from being a slave yourself and now you belittle others with your unsolicited opinions. One often hears the reasoning that nobody is more entitled to talk about the issue of slavery than slaves and former slaves themselves, but do you also trust the cat to keep the cream? What would your grandfather say if he could see you now? Would he—sitting in his cabin smoking Crystal Egg—have dreamed of you lecturing free-born and holders? Would he have dared to lecture his holder because he believed that through his interpretation of the Scriptures the Lord's voice resonated? God has assigned places for each in society, all one has to do is to find it.

I advise you to fear the Lord and organise your affairs!
Odelya, Begum etc. pp.


For good or ill, my place is as a capsuleer in service of God and Amarr, and it is my duty to represent the principles we are entrusted by God to hold. Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.

Should the lords to whom I serve instruct me to still my voice, I shall. But I take no lessons on place from the likes of unborn from faithless nations.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2015-07-16 21:06:27 UTC
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:

Samira is correct in her statement that Holders are the only class permitted by Scripture to own slaves.



Then why is it that we have different standards in Khanid? Why are Khanid allowed to keep "9thGen" Matari? Why are we allowed to buy and sell freely from any source? Why do the current trade agreements allow ANY Capsuleer in Amarr and Khanid space the right to purchase and sell "Controlled Personnel?"

Why? Because the Empress and the Theology Council and the Privy Council and King Khanid and Bloody CONCORD said it was ok.

Now if you're saying that they all made a mistake and your way is better and more in-line with Scripture than their way...

And seriously everyone. TCMCs are not the "True Slave" implants that you see among Sansha's zombies. These are a lot more subtle and afford a great deal of free will for the individual. They are certainly more humane than the use of force, coercion and especially VITOC.

To Goldfinch: I am deeply saddened to hear your story. As I previously said, abuses do still continue, even among Angel organizations. Driving the practice further underground with no quality control is not the answer. Even without the spiritual component, owning "Controlled Personnel" should never be done by amateurs or the inherently abusive.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2015-07-16 21:16:25 UTC
True Slave implants are actually thousands time cleaner, subtler and advanced than TCMCs, that appear almost stone-age in comparison.

True Slave implants do not trump the senses of their bearer, for that TCMCs can only lie and alter perception to lead to an expected result.

True Slave implants make the bearer remain completely clear of any sense alteration, but manage to sweep his or her loyalty completely through a direct action, and currently badly understood.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#24 - 2015-07-16 21:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Then why is it that we have different standards in Khanid? Why are Khanid allowed to keep "9thGen" Matari? Why are we allowed to buy and sell freely from any source?


There is only one Empire of God.

Quote:
Why do the current trade agreements allow ANY Capsuleer in Amarr and Khanid space the right to purchase and sell "Controlled Personnel?"

Why? Because the Empress and the Theology Council and the Privy Council and King Khanid and Bloody CONCORD said it was ok.


Her Imperial Majesty has not said it. The Theology Council and the Privy Council have not said it. The laws of the Theology Council are defined in Scripture, and Scripture defines ownership of slaves as a right exclusive to Holders.

The opinions of others are irrelevant.

The fact is that the ownership of slaves by anyone other than Holders is illegal in Amarr, as written in Scriptural law. The ownership of slaves by anyone outside of Amarr is illegal by CONCORD law.

Current liberal free trade policies do not make non-Holder ownership legal, they only provide loopholes that are exploited by spiritually-deficient fortune-seekers. Ownership by anyone that is not a Holder is a crime against God, period.

Quote:
They are certainly more humane than the use of force, coercion and especially VITOC.


Give me the whip, not the chip. Inject me, don't implant me.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2015-07-16 21:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Samira Kernher wrote:
Give me the whip, not the chip. Inject me, don't implant me.

Um. Samira?

I usually stay out of discussions like this one, but....

As catchy slogans go, this one seems a little ... off?

... Actually, it makes my skin crawl like it's going to slither off and hide under my couch and refuse to come out for a week.

Maybe I'm the only one who gets that feeling, but ... maybe not?
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-07-16 21:54:56 UTC
I am sure the sentiment is in the right place, the wording is a little offputting.
A wise holder will find a way to treat and educate his slaves to bring them to the path of righteousness with the least extreme measures possible. Simply because the Theology Council has approved the use of TCMCs or Vitoc does not mean that they are endorsed.
Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
#27 - 2015-07-16 22:15:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Odelya d'Hanguest
In Light's Name

Samira Kernher wrote:
For good or ill, my place is as a capsuleer in service of God and Amarr, and it is my duty to represent the principles we are entrusted by God to hold. Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.

Should the lords to whom I serve instruct me to still my voice, I shall. But I take no lessons on place from the likes of unborn from faithless nations.

Woe betide the age where apes wear the robes of bishops and servitude is confused with pride... Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man. Man such as you. In service of God and Amarr the only words that should come out of your mouth when talking to your betters are “Yes, Sir!” and “Yes, Ma’am!”

My ancestors fought alongside the first emperors of Amarr. Give some respect to the blood of the martyrs that died for your salvation. Show some gratitude that a d'Hanguest humbles herself and speaks to you.

Odelya d'Hanguest, Begum etc. pp.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2015-07-16 22:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Samira Kernher wrote:


The fact is that the ownership of slaves by anyone other than Holders is illegal in Amarr, as written in Scriptural law. The ownership of slaves by anyone outside of Amarr is illegal by CONCORD law.

Current liberal free trade policies do not make non-Holder ownership legal, they only provide loopholes that are exploited by spiritually-deficient fortune-seekers. Ownership by anyone that is not a Holder is a crime against God, period.


Ms Kernher,

CONCORD law does not make slave trading illegal as far as I am aware. It suffice to take a look at what the SCC allows to trade everywhere in New Eden. That business is usually made illegal by the empires themselves, and that includes the Amarr that for now also strictly forbids slave taking outside of Amarr borders, on foreign citizens.

I would also urge you to thread more carefully when accusing entities like the Civic Court of crimes against God. If you truly believe that we all are souless capsuleers, then we are even less than slaves, according to your own words. Slaves do not accuse the Civic Court and other imperial institutions related to the TC of crimes against God.

Especially if you are to drag our members into the mud you sling all around you.

Thank you.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#29 - 2015-07-16 22:39:10 UTC
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
Woe betide the age where apes wear the robes of bishops and servitude is confused with pride...


Woe betide cowards who would follow greater cowards.

Lyn Farel wrote:

Ms Kernher,

CONCORD law does not make slave trading illegal as far as I am aware. It suffice to take a look at what the SCC allows to trade everywhere in New Eden. That business is usually made illegal by the empires themselves, and that includes the Amarr that for now also strictly forbids slave taking outside of Amarr borders, on foreign citizens.

I would also urge you to thread more carefully when accusing entities like the Civic Court of crimes against God. If you truly believe that we all are souless capsuleers, then we are even less than slaves, according to your own words. Slaves do not accuse the Civic Court and other imperial institutions related to the TC of crimes against God.

Especially if you are to drag our members into the mud you sling all around you.

Thank you.


Farel, either make a productive point or butt out. For one who would like to see reform in the Empire you certainly do have a bad habit of saying stupid things that do nothing but divert and derail decent movements to do some good in the world.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Anslo
Scope Works
#30 - 2015-07-16 22:44:21 UTC
I'd say she's making more sense and progress than your broken record.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2015-07-16 22:48:46 UTC
Shutaq,

For your information, I also signed that petition. That point is an irrelevant red-herring, with all due respect.

Your corporation continuously spends its time lecturing and humiliating its allies for no reason. For once, I intend to stand firm against such bullying, especially when said bullying comes out from heretic mouths.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#32 - 2015-07-16 22:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
Anslo wrote:
I'd say she's making more sense and progress than your broken record.

You don't even know what she said, do you?

And Farel, please just stop. The only people who can actually call someone a heretic is the Theology Council, and that is what this is about. The Theology Council is the higher court, and we are petitioning it and the throne to make this an issue. It's called activism, and a bit of rabble rousing is included in that. You are right, it's not something we do much in the Empire, but there is a strong enough case here to make, and we are going to make it.

If you really cannot see what is being done here then I'd be glad to explain further in private.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Anslo
Scope Works
#33 - 2015-07-16 22:54:07 UTC
She points out a fact. You go ad hominem. Not very becoming of an officer and servant of Amarr. What was that rule again about behavior in public?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2015-07-16 22:55:34 UTC
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
In Light's Name

Samira Kernher wrote:
For good or ill, my place is as a capsuleer in service of God and Amarr, and it is my duty to represent the principles we are entrusted by God to hold. Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.

Should the lords to whom I serve instruct me to still my voice, I shall. But I take no lessons on place from the likes of unborn from faithless nations.

Woe betide the age where apes wear the robes of bishops and servitude is confused with pride... Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man. Man such as you. In service of God and Amarr the only words that should come out of your mouth when talking to your betters are “Yes, Sir!” and “Yes, Ma’am!”

My ancestors fought alongside the first emperors of Amarr. Give some respect to the blood of the martyrs that died for your salvation. Show some gratitude that a d'Hanguest humbles herself and speaks to you.

Odelya d'Hanguest, Begum etc. pp.


Sorry, aren't you a heretic now or something?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2015-07-16 22:58:20 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Anslo wrote:
I'd say she's making more sense and progress than your broken record.

You don't even know what she said, do you?

And Farel, please just stop. The only people who can actually call someone a heretic is the Theology Council, and that is what this is about. The Theology Council is the higher court, and we are petitioning it and the throne to make this an issue. It's called activism, and a bit of rabble rousing is included in that. You are right, it's not something we do much in the Empire, but there is a strong enough case here to make, and we are going to make it.

If you really cannot see what is being done here then I'd be glad to explain further in private.


This confuses me sir... Why are you PIE all continuously issuing statements of heresy for X or Y reasons ? Don't you keep a list, actually, for that matter... ?

That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#36 - 2015-07-16 23:04:35 UTC
Because the Theology Council does not bother to pick out every single heretic capsuleer out there and stamp their forehead with the word 'heretic', so we make due. Why do you keep on making issues about Imperial institutions and the way they should be run about PIE and they way it is run?

That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#37 - 2015-07-16 23:07:20 UTC
Please take this elsewhere.
Foley Aberas Jones
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-07-16 23:26:41 UTC
Yo whats going on in this thr-

Nope
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2015-07-17 02:04:00 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:


Give me the whip, not the chip. Inject me, don't implant me.


As you wish...


Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
I am sure the sentiment is in the right place, the wording is a little offputting.
A wise holder will find a way to treat and educate his slaves to bring them to the path of righteousness with the least extreme measures possible. Simply because the Theology Council has approved the use of TCMCs or Vitoc does not mean that they are endorsed.


YES IT DOES! That is EXACTLY what it means! Look:

endorse
[en-dawrs]
verb (used with object), endorsed, endorsing.
1. to approve, support, or sustain:


Lyn Farel wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:


The fact is that the ownership of slaves by anyone other than Holders is illegal in Amarr, as written in Scriptural law. The ownership of slaves by anyone outside of Amarr is illegal by CONCORD law.

Current liberal free trade policies do not make non-Holder ownership legal, they only provide loopholes that are exploited by spiritually-deficient fortune-seekers. Ownership by anyone that is not a Holder is a crime against God, period.


Ms Kernher,

CONCORD law does not make slave trading illegal as far as I am aware. It suffice to take a look at what the SCC allows to trade everywhere in New Eden. That business is usually made illegal by the empires themselves, and that includes the Amarr that for now also strictly forbids slave taking outside of Amarr borders, on foreign citizens.

I would also urge you to thread more carefully when accusing entities like the Civic Court of crimes against God. If you truly believe that we all are souless capsuleers, then we are even less than slaves, according to your own words. Slaves do not accuse the Civic Court and other imperial institutions related to the TC of crimes against God.

Especially if you are to drag our members into the mud you sling all around you.

Thank you.



Agreed,

Caldari law makes it illegal in the State. Gallente law, the Federation, Matari law, the Republic. CONCORD and all four governments have no authority in the great expanses outside their borders. And again, laws within Khanid are vastly different than the rest of the Empire. Khanid is a sovereign state that is joined with the Empire, not a s simple House within it like the Tash-Murkons. Khanid law and Amarr law make it legal for non-Holders to own slaves within the Empire, not CONCORD. So if some of you have a problem with Amarr law, maybe you need to re-evaluate your loyalty.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-07-17 02:16:37 UTC
Amarr law does not allow for non-holders to own slaves.