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Crime & Punishment

 
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HighSec Ganking and Appropriate Punishment

Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#81 - 2015-07-16 17:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I don't want realistic collisions. If I did want more realistic collisions I would have said something like "I want more realistic collisions"
It was a hypothetical scenario based on what has been asked for many times in the past using statements very similar to the one you made.

Quote:
It's cute that you took the liberty of extrapalating something I didn't say into something that would totally break the game and then imply I'm dumb because of your bad idea. I see one of your rabid supporters actually fell for it.
I never meant to imply that you were dumb, or that my idea was anything other than bad. As for my rabid supporter? He merely distilled my hypothetical scenario into a simple statement.

FYI I am what many people in the C&P forum consider to be prey, the only difference between me and their victims is that for the most part I'm not stupid enough to get caught.

Quote:
All the faux math was a nice touch. X times Y time Z was fine, but when you ended with 'equates to a big mess' your argument lost most of its precision. (I was going to say lost most of it's impact, but I'm thinking that would be wasted on you)
You thought wrong, if you'd have said that I'd have lol'd and given you a like for the pun.

Quote:
I'll give some more flesh to the beachball skeleton.

Empty Freighter = Beach Ball
Freighter full of tritanium = Brick that a mach will bounce off of w/ little effect
Freighter 1/2 goods and 1/2 tritanium = something between a beach ball and a brick

Freighter pilots would have the option of trading out half of their cargo space for some heavy bulk commodity. Doing this would lessen their bumpability and lessen their top speed and their warp speed. Rough math analogy would be twice as safe (against bumping) and half as fast at travelling. Cut align time in half.
Alternatively they could bring friends with webs that allow them to get into warp faster. Why introduce additional mechanics to do what can already be done?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#82 - 2015-07-16 17:31:26 UTC
I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.

I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.

As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#83 - 2015-07-16 18:00:07 UTC
ganking is in a good place. only idiots get ganked, and there are a lot of idiots Big smile
Geyene
Doomheim
#84 - 2015-07-16 18:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Geyene
Sounds like you want to take the thing that makes EVE interesting, fun and dangerous and basically scrap it and make EVE like all the other MMOs I don't play because they don't have that thing.

There are tons of games out there where non-aggression is enforced arbitrarily through the game mechanics rather than a choice / consequence model like CONCORD. You are free to play any of those games. Leave this one the way it is.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.   If you have a big enough hammer, every problem is a nail.

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#85 - 2015-07-16 19:41:25 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.

I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.

As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.



lol you cant bump a freighter with an enyo
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#86 - 2015-07-16 20:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Kandu Harr wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Kandu Harr wrote:
Jonah, i sat and watched this happen, i have screenshots. don't tell me how it works.
your point arguments are not relevant.
there is no escape, short of ganking the machs.
or being let go.
Yet you're still wrong Shocked


no, unfortunately.

1. i never said the cargo was scanned with probes, its a cargo scanner on the undock
2-3 the mach lands before the freighter has 'come out of warp'. a single pass on a scanner, they already have the sig
6. stealth bombers
7. ganker never leaves grid
9. shooting the bomber doesn't free your ship
and can flipping the fallen loot is trivial.

wake up, you are smarter than that.

2-3: That isn't possible. The mach pilot has to predict the freighter's warp path. Probes are not involved in 90% of ganks. The only time they are used is if the freighter escapes to a safe spot or logs off while being bumped.
6. Anyone using stealth bombers to gank is an idiot or is encountering fits tanked against specific damage types with specific holes. Even in that instance it would be more effective to move to a thrasher or tornado setup that bombers. The vast majority of freighter ganks are done by catalysts, brutix and/or talos.
9. Unlike other forms of ganking, podding the gankers, stealing/blowing up their ships, and having counter-bumpers on grid are all effective against globbydunking. All normal anti-ganking strategies still work, and remote reps are even more effective because of the down time between waves.

Hyper dunking has been used for years. I don't understand why the bowhead suddenly made it a big deal.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#87 - 2015-07-17 04:05:30 UTC
Tldr

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Super Perforator
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#88 - 2015-07-17 04:21:06 UTC
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Tldr


That sure is a lot of words.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5610165#post5610165


Praise James!

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#89 - 2015-07-17 11:06:53 UTC
Globby wrote:
ganking is in an OK place. only idiots gank full time as their eve playstyle , and there are a lot of idiots Big smile



I corrected a few typos for you. (your welcome)
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#90 - 2015-07-17 11:32:36 UTC
Globby wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.

I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.

As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.



lol you cant bump a freighter with an enyo



I can and have done it several times back in the day. The difference between what I did and what you do is pretty large. I didn't have to bump it off grid to gank it. I just had to bump it enough to keep it from jumping through a gate while I kept it pointed. I've never suicide ganked freighters - I've only taken them down as war targets.

What you do and what I've done are similar, but different. I'd like to be clear here. I admire what you guys do. It takes skill, planning and effort. That doesn't mean I think it's good for the game. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's a tough subject to weigh in on. No one should get a free pass doing anything in eve. I truely believe that.

On the other hand if the only way to get goods from A to B in a frieghter is to fit it for max tank instead of max cargo, limit the amount of value in the hold and 2 or 3 other things - then something is out of balance.

Here's my feelings on it. There is no way in hell a gang of cats or bombers should be able to routinely take down a capital ship in empire under concords nose. 100 mil in t1 scrub ships shouldn't be able to do that every time. Should a gang of 10 BS be able to trade for a freighter that is just too good to pass up? - heck yeah. The math is just off. I'll say that an underlying problem is with the concord AI. They 3 volley every ship that crosses the line. That could use a tweak. If a concord response fleet can cut through my gank mega in 3 vollies then they should be able to alpha a catalyst. I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks. If it's too much work on the AI to alpha things, then tweek the lock times and how soon concord puts a jam on smaller ships.

CCP just needs to balance out a few things. I'm really not a fan of a hard -10 player being able to warp around HS all day in a properly fit ship. That's also tough. I think it's OK for a -10 guy to get to jita, grab an implant or what ever and make a run back to LS. Spending all day trading thrashers for pods is not ok (again - my opinion).

Keep in mind none of this is butthurt show me on the doll crap. We're discussing game balance as it relates to suicide ganking - so I'm giving my opinion as a gal that laughs when she gets ganked and occaisionally ganks folks.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#91 - 2015-07-17 12:11:24 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Globby wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.

I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.

As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.



lol you cant bump a freighter with an enyo



I can and have done it several times back in the day. The difference between what I did and what you do is pretty large. I didn't have to bump it off grid to gank it. I just had to bump it enough to keep it from jumping through a gate while I kept it pointed. I've never suicide ganked freighters - I've only taken them down as war targets.

What you do and what I've done are similar, but different. I'd like to be clear here. I admire what you guys do. It takes skill, planning and effort. That doesn't mean I think it's good for the game. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's a tough subject to weigh in on. No one should get a free pass doing anything in eve. I truely believe that.

On the other hand if the only way to get goods from A to B in a frieghter is to fit it for max tank instead of max cargo, limit the amount of value in the hold and 2 or 3 other things - then something is out of balance.

Here's my feelings on it. There is no way in hell a gang of cats or bombers should be able to routinely take down a capital ship in empire under concords nose. 100 mil in t1 scrub ships shouldn't be able to do that every time. Should a gang of 10 BS be able to trade for a freighter that is just too good to pass up? - heck yeah. The math is just off. I'll say that an underlying problem is with the concord AI. They 3 volley every ship that crosses the line. That could use a tweak. If a concord response fleet can cut through my gank mega in 3 vollies then they should be able to alpha a catalyst. I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks. If it's too much work on the AI to alpha things, then tweek the lock times and how soon concord puts a jam on smaller ships.

CCP just needs to balance out a few things. I'm really not a fan of a hard -10 player being able to warp around HS all day in a properly fit ship. That's also tough. I think it's OK for a -10 guy to get to jita, grab an implant or what ever and make a run back to LS. Spending all day trading thrashers for pods is not ok (again - my opinion).

Keep in mind none of this is butthurt show me on the doll crap. We're discussing game balance as it relates to suicide ganking - so I'm giving my opinion as a gal that laughs when she gets ganked and occaisionally ganks folks.

Just to clarify they don't need to bump off grid to gank.

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2015-07-17 12:21:30 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

I can and have done it several times back in the day. The difference between what I did and what you do is pretty large. I didn't have to bump it off grid to gank it. I just had to bump it enough to keep it from jumping through a gate while I kept it pointed. I've never suicide ganked freighters - I've only taken them down as war targets.


You don't have to bump it once it's pointed. It sounds like what you're saying is you would aggress before they jump through their out-gate... but if they're a WT, you would want to aggress when they attempt to warp from the in-gate to their next out-gate.

Why would you want to stress keeping them from jumping through a gate? It's a Freighter and a WT, it's already dead. Pirate

Serendipity Lost wrote:

What you do and what I've done are similar, but different. I'd like to be clear here. I admire what you guys do. It takes skill, planning and effort. That doesn't mean I think it's good for the game. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's a tough subject to weigh in on. No one should get a free pass doing anything in eve. I truely believe that.

On the other hand if the only way to get goods from A to B in a frieghter is to fit it for max tank instead of max cargo, limit the amount of value in the hold and 2 or 3 other things - then something is out of balance.


It honestly doesn't sounds like you admire what we do.

It's all about risk. Is Bob the Highsec Freighter pilot willing to risk 2b/isk worth of stuff in his triple Expanded Freighter? For this example let's say he is. He should then take the necessary steps to ensure the trip is as safe as possible. The Star Map comes to mind. +1 scout comes to mind. Webbing comes to mind.

Unfortunately, most players don't plan ahead and end up losing their Freighter/s because of it.

Serendipity Lost wrote:

Here's my feelings on it. There is no way in hell a gang of cats or bombers should be able to routinely take down a capital ship in empire under concords nose. 100 mil in t1 scrub ships shouldn't be able to do that every time. Should a gang of 10 BS be able to trade for a freighter that is just too good to pass up? - heck yeah. The math is just off. I'll say that an underlying problem is with the concord AI. They 3 volley every ship that crosses the line. That could use a tweak. If a concord response fleet can cut through my gank mega in 3 vollies then they should be able to alpha a catalyst. I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks. If it's too much work on the AI to alpha things, then tweek the lock times and how soon concord puts a jam on smaller ships.


Isk tanking is a terrible idea. Also, I believe CCP is in favor of a fleet of players being able to take down a single target (blobbing). Something about being a community of players working together, or something, I don't remember where I saw it.

Also, a random destroyer vs. a random Freighter. Notice the difference in guns? A fleet of destroyers should be able to take out a single Freighter. If you don't agree with the price differences, then change the market.

It should be the players putting forth the effort to stop piracy and ganking, not NPCs, NPCs punish and that's it. Stopping the gank starts with the player.

Serendipity Lost wrote:

CCP just needs to balance out a few things. I'm really not a fan of a hard -10 player being able to warp around HS all day in a properly fit ship. That's also tough. I think it's OK for a -10 guy to get to jita, grab an implant or what ever and make a run back to LS. Spending all day trading thrashers for pods is not ok (again - my opinion).


If by properly fit ship, you mean a ship that must have travel mods and possibly even WCS so that it can run away from Police and other players, then okay. Frigates and destroyers can align fast enough for NPC's, but not always vs. other players.

A -10 player will likely die on the undock of Jita unless they have instas.

A destroyer vs. an escape pod... something tells me the destroyer should win every time. Blink

These of course are my opinions as well. HTH

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#93 - 2015-07-17 15:15:19 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Globby wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.

I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.

As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.



lol you cant bump a freighter with an enyo



I can and have done it several times back in the day. The difference between what I did and what you do is pretty large. I didn't have to bump it off grid to gank it. I just had to bump it enough to keep it from jumping through a gate while I kept it pointed. I've never suicide ganked freighters - I've only taken them down as war targets.

What you do and what I've done are similar, but different. I'd like to be clear here. I admire what you guys do. It takes skill, planning and effort. That doesn't mean I think it's good for the game. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's a tough subject to weigh in on. No one should get a free pass doing anything in eve. I truely believe that.

On the other hand if the only way to get goods from A to B in a frieghter is to fit it for max tank instead of max cargo, limit the amount of value in the hold and 2 or 3 other things - then something is out of balance.

Here's my feelings on it. There is no way in hell a gang of cats or bombers should be able to routinely take down a capital ship in empire under concords nose. 100 mil in t1 scrub ships shouldn't be able to do that every time. Should a gang of 10 BS be able to trade for a freighter that is just too good to pass up? - heck yeah. The math is just off. I'll say that an underlying problem is with the concord AI. They 3 volley every ship that crosses the line. That could use a tweak. If a concord response fleet can cut through my gank mega in 3 vollies then they should be able to alpha a catalyst. I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks. If it's too much work on the AI to alpha things, then tweek the lock times and how soon concord puts a jam on smaller ships.

CCP just needs to balance out a few things. I'm really not a fan of a hard -10 player being able to warp around HS all day in a properly fit ship. That's also tough. I think it's OK for a -10 guy to get to jita, grab an implant or what ever and make a run back to LS. Spending all day trading thrashers for pods is not ok (again - my opinion).

Keep in mind none of this is butthurt show me on the doll crap. We're discussing game balance as it relates to suicide ganking - so I'm giving my opinion as a gal that laughs when she gets ganked and occaisionally ganks folks.

Just to clarify they don't need to bump off grid to gank.


Oh, then why do you bump them w/ machs??
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#94 - 2015-07-17 15:24:58 UTC
Captain obvious.... er Starfox

I did take them on the out gate. I think I mentioned I was in an enyo? There are a lot of HP to chew through. It could just crawl back to the gate and jump while I worked on it w/out bumping.

As to the other things. Our opinions differ. I can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We could both spend hours here w/ point and counter point, make up examples and justify anything. This isn't what I would call a new argument in eve.

OP - way wrong to the point where his ideas would break eve

Me - the perfect balance that would end in eve nirvana for all (google "perfection" you'll see my portrait and life story)

You - Well, puppies grow up, learn their manners and eventually behave like they are suposed to (I'm patient, you'll get there)


Naga Elohim
Aeras Krekan Syndicate
#95 - 2015-07-17 18:28:16 UTC
If CCP really wanted to do something about Ganking, they would make it so that you cant fit your ship in a station if you have negative sec status. (according to sec status travel guidelines)

But where is the fun in that? What?

I have always admired CODE. from afar. The doctrine from this James 315 character really inspired me to make better travel fits. (which is why I haven't been blapped by them yet)

I really want to join CODE. and help other people correct the error of their ways through the wisdom of James 315's teachings.

I got some Tornados waiting for orders if anyone from CODE. is reading Twisted
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#96 - 2015-07-17 19:16:28 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:

Hyper dunking has been used for years. I don't understand why the bowhead suddenly made it a big deal.

Because it was the first time it was used to kill freighters. No one before used it on a freighter or another player.

Serendipity Lost wrote:

Oh, then why do you bump them w/ machs??

We bump freighters with macharials to move them and stop them from warping.
We do not always need to move them and stop them from warping.
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#97 - 2015-07-17 19:22:40 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks.


This is a lie, or an exploit. I'm feeling it's probably the former.
CONCORD's response time, and the time it takes for CONCORD to kill you are two completely different things. Upon arriving, CONCORD will instantly jam, neut and disable your drones. Regardless of how long you survive in your ship post CONCORD arrival, you will not do more damage. In fact, if CONCORD alpha'd everything after they arrive, it would be a substantial buff to hyperdunking, because of the 5 second or so downtime between being useless and dead.

Even in a prepulled 0.5 with maximum implants, skills and overheated guns with faction Gyros, you'd still be short 5 seconds to get that third shot off. Trust me, I know.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#98 - 2015-07-17 23:43:07 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:

Just to clarify they don't need to bump off grid to gank.


Oh, then why do you bump them w/ machs??

I don't bump anybody with Machs... they do bump them a decent distance usually 100km or so but that's hardly off grid

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#99 - 2015-07-18 01:36:42 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Captain obvious.... er Starfox

I did take them on the out gate. I think I mentioned I was in an enyo? There are a lot of HP to chew through. It could just crawl back to the gate and jump while I worked on it w/out bumping.

As to the other things. Our opinions differ. I can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We could both spend hours here w/ point and counter point, make up examples and justify anything. This isn't what I would call a new argument in eve.

OP - way wrong to the point where his ideas would break eve

Me - the perfect balance that would end in eve nirvana for all (google "perfection" you'll see my portrait and life story)

You - Well, puppies grow up, learn their manners and eventually behave like they are suposed to (I'm patient, you'll get there)




So you didn't fit a web on your Enyo, why? Prop, scram, web.


Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#100 - 2015-07-18 01:47:20 UTC
Capt Starfox wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Captain obvious.... er Starfox

I did take them on the out gate. I think I mentioned I was in an enyo? There are a lot of HP to chew through. It could just crawl back to the gate and jump while I worked on it w/out bumping.

As to the other things. Our opinions differ. I can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We could both spend hours here w/ point and counter point, make up examples and justify anything. This isn't what I would call a new argument in eve.

OP - way wrong to the point where his ideas would break eve

Me - the perfect balance that would end in eve nirvana for all (google "perfection" you'll see my portrait and life story)

You - Well, puppies grow up, learn their manners and eventually behave like they are suposed to (I'm patient, you'll get there)




So you didn't fit a web on your Enyo, why? Prop, scram, web.



if it was fit for killing mission bears it was likely active tanked with a cap booster and a neut in the spare

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin