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Next development focus: Team Missions.

Author
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#21 - 2015-07-15 14:57:37 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I do see your point, however, there is a huge swathe of people who are being "discarded" Those who are not being taken in by player corporations, those who join some, find they hate them and leave, avoiding player corporations from then on.

What I am envisioning is a system that enables more new players to grow into groups organically, from their T1 frigate and onward.


I agree completely that those type of systems are needed. That's why groups like RvB and Eve Uni exist. They fill that role. If a new player can't take a few hits and can't bounce back from a few bad experiences, they won't last in EVE long term anyway. Part of what you are describing is simply the harsh nature of EVE. Better to weed out those who won't last early on, isn't it?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#22 - 2015-07-15 15:08:56 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
... That's why groups like RvB and Eve Uni exist. They fill that role. ...
EVE Uni is not as common knowledge as you might like to believe with new players.
Red vs Blue farms new players, they use shiny ships and shiny pods to kill off the new players, there is even a rule that you can not pod each other. To a new player it is a very negative learning experience for PVP.

Those groups are also estabilished and have the human limitations. They do not really inspire new groups to form up and grow.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Lan Wang
Pandemic Alpha
#23 - 2015-07-15 15:11:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
you mean like lvl 5's and incursions? not supported as these are all ready available


And the static COSMOS complexes. And DED complexes like the Angfel 10/10 I did last night with a buddy. And Womrholes.

It's like he's saying "EVE is dying, quick CCP, make some content that already exists in several forms in the game already, that will fix everything!".

Why do people claim to want more stuff when they don't use the stuff that they have already?


yeah im sure this was all discussed yesterday in another thread Roll

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#24 - 2015-07-15 15:17:56 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
... That's why groups like RvB and Eve Uni exist. They fill that role. ...
EVE Uni is not as common knowledge as you might like to believe with new players.
Red vs Blue farms new players, they use shiny ships and shiny pods to kill off the new players, there is even a rule that you can not pod each other. To a new player it is a very negative learning experience for PVP.

Those groups are also estabilished and have the human limitations. They do not really inspire new groups to form up and grow.


Which non-human npc driven feature has ever done that? That';s the primary flaw of these kinds of ideas.

Incursions didn't teach people how to be in pvp fleets, Burner missions don't teach solo pvp, lvl 4 missions don't teach people how to fit ships for pvp etc etc. In fact, npc interaction goes counter to what you want, because while people are dual hacking some mission with some random person they probably won't see again, they may be missing a real opportunity to do something else, such as what EVE uni and others offer.

It's a matter of predisposition and self determination, nothing you do will encourage people UN-inclined to do something to do that something. Attempts to manipulate outcomes like what you propose always backfire.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#25 - 2015-07-15 15:22:58 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
EVE Uni is not as common knowledge as you might like to believe with new players.
Red vs Blue farms new players, they use shiny ships and shiny pods to kill off the new players, there is even a rule that you can not pod each other. To a new player it is a very negative learning experience for PVP.

Those groups are also estabilished and have the human limitations. They do not really inspire new groups to form up and grow.


Where did you get the idea that RvB is a negative experience for new players? I joined RvB less than a month into the game and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I learned a ton. If someone pays attention in rookie help, asks questions, starts conversations with people who kill them, etc. they will learn a lot.

New players have to be proactive about wanting to learn. You can't force an interest in group content onto people. They have to want to learn it or they will get bored and leave, no matter what.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#26 - 2015-07-15 15:28:39 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
... New players have to be proactive about wanting to learn. You can't force an interest in group content onto people. They have to want to learn it or they will get bored and leave, no matter what.
There you go with this "force" nonsense again.

In missions, they can be pretty terrible and not be so harshly punished for it. Also there can be a scale of difficulty in each subsequent jump gate room.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-07-15 15:35:55 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Personally I would much rather have more burner type missions, but instead of the NPCs being the same every time they are random within ship classes, and they are fit randomly with pvp weaponry.
Sleeper AI can't be rolled out to L1 missions fast enough. Cry
Jenshae Chiroptera
#28 - 2015-07-15 15:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Aerasia wrote:
Sleeper AI can't be rolled out to L1 missions fast enough. Cry
Why just the AI? Throw a whole C6 site into a random L1 site time to time, with the same ship restrictions. Twisted

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#29 - 2015-07-15 15:39:50 UTC
See, this has the potential to be something. A big trap.

So instead of leveling their raven, two or more people will level ravens, then when all the missions have been conquered, they won't have anything to do, get bored, and quit. Maybe some of them will branch out, but if current trends are at all predictive, most will not. They learned the game in one context, they are still at square one in other regards.

I'd presume you'd want to add these to Hi Sec, which does not need more income generating activities than it already has.

The way they get more people in this game is simple - make your existing customer base happy, both with the direction the game is going in, and the game they currently have. No experience can substitute for good mentors who are enthusiastic about the game, and can show you its many facets.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#30 - 2015-07-15 15:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Vic Jefferson wrote:
See, this has the potential to be something. A big trap.
They learned the game in one context, they are still at square one in other regards.
... or they can learn about broadcasts, repairing each other, focusing fire and tackling AI before it warps away.

This creates the potential for a group to form that have some basic understanding of how to PVP and have worked out what roles they enjoy.
Enabling them.

I believe we would hear more stories about the little group of newbies who went on together to form corporations, alliances and coalitions as a result. Making their EVE-life-long friends when they are enthusiastic about the game.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#31 - 2015-07-15 15:48:15 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
There you go with this "force" nonsense again.

In missions, they can be pretty terrible and not be so harshly punished for it. Also there can be a scale of difficulty in each subsequent jump gate room.


I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I am saying we shouldn't have a game mechanic managed by CCP to handle something that players can create and maintain on their own.

Hell, I wish missions as they stand now were designed and presented by players instead of by game mechanics.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#32 - 2015-07-15 15:57:14 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
See, this has the potential to be something. A big trap.
They learned the game in one context, they are still at square one in other regards.
... or they can learn about broadcasts, repairing each other, focusing fire and tackling AI before it warps away.

This creates the potential for a group to form that have some basic understanding of how to PVP and have worked out what roles they enjoy.
Enabling them.


Echoing numerous other people, there are plenty of learning corps/alliances with good instructors out there, who will be happy to show you so many things about this game. It has already been shown that the main difference, or at least one of the main factors in predicting if a player is going to stick around, is if they have joined a corp. So the real trick is to get new players to accept, New Eden is a very complex place; no matter who you are, the best thing you can do is spend a few months under an individual or a corp's guidance. I.E. instead of playing EvE against AI, join a corp. This is different than making a corp - the majority of new player corps, made by new players for new players, are traps; literally the blind leading the blind where information and experience aren't going to be available or accessible.

I personally started the game in a new player corp lead by a new player. That corp is now gone, everyone but me quit the game, and I would not be playing currently if I had not looked for a good player run corp. While anecdotal, it still speaks the trend - those that join established corps, stay for the long haul. Thus developer attention should be focused on getting people to try out corps, one after another, until they find their fit.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#33 - 2015-07-15 16:02:23 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
... I personally started the game in a new player corp lead by a new player. ...
I very deliberately use the word, "group" and don't harp on about newbie corps. Blink

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#34 - 2015-07-15 16:08:17 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:

I personally started the game in a new player corp lead by a new player. That corp is now gone, everyone but me quit the game, and I would not be playing currently if I had not looked for a good player run corp. While anecdotal, it still speaks the trend - those that join established corps, stay for the long haul. Thus developer attention should be focused on getting people to try out corps, one after another, until they find their fit.




I think something that could help this is the option on character creation to choose to be put in an NPC corp right away, or to be automatically put into a player run corp. New player corps could opt-in to allow new players to automatically join them.

Obviously that idea would need to be fleshed out fairly significantly, but if out of the box you were placed in eve uni, RvB, whatever, I could see that helping new player retention.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2015-07-15 16:25:58 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Sleeper AI can't be rolled out to L1 missions fast enough. Cry
Why just the AI? Throw a whole C6 site into a random L1 site time to time, with the same ship restrictions. Twisted
Get CCP to build a 'sell your super-escalated mission site' system like they've got for killrights, and maybe you'll be on to something. Lol
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#36 - 2015-07-15 16:28:39 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Obviously that idea would need to be fleshed out fairly significantly, but if out of the box you were placed in eve uni, RvB, whatever, I could see that helping new player retention.


Eh, Its a tough nut to crack. I would hate for people to join Eve-U automatically, and it's complicated for lots of reasons too, as the game can't specifically endorse one entity over another. Joining Eve-U means you can't suicide gank or do fun stuff in Hi sec, which might just be a player's thing. You don't want to drop people into things they do not yet understand, you just want to make it easier to understand, hey, you aren't alone, there are lots of like minded individuals out there. NPSI probably opens a lot of peoples' perspectives and lets them meet people and corps they may be interested in. It has always been about the tools available to get a certain task done; just make it easier to shop corporations.

Eve was built by the players - let the players show the game to each other. At its core, the game is pretty dry, it is literally the people that make the difference, which is sorta my main beef with overpopulating new players' experiences with NPCs.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#37 - 2015-07-15 16:36:24 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
... NPSI probably opens a lot of peoples' perspectives and lets them meet people and corps they may be interested in. ...
Time to time, I talk about an in game corporation list for recuiting, finding "White Knights" and a list of mercenary corps. These could work on reputations, boosting them with points and giving them points depends on contracts or accepting their help (+ maybe other stats)

Perhaps, what could also be listed as a tab on the same sheet is common NPSI fleets. They provide an information page, of the ships required and their stage. Giving newbies a way to contact them, find them and prepare before the fleet forms up.
Again, this can be tied into fleets and who joins them to push them up the list.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#38 - 2015-07-15 16:55:08 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:


Eh, Its a tough nut to crack. I would hate for people to join Eve-U automatically, and it's complicated for lots of reasons too, as the game can't specifically endorse one entity over another. Joining Eve-U means you can't suicide gank or do fun stuff in Hi sec, which might just be a player's thing. You don't want to drop people into things they do not yet understand, you just want to make it easier to understand, hey, you aren't alone, there are lots of like minded individuals out there. NPSI probably opens a lot of peoples' perspectives and lets them meet people and corps they may be interested in. It has always been about the tools available to get a certain task done; just make it easier to shop corporations.

Eve was built by the players - let the players show the game to each other. At its core, the game is pretty dry, it is literally the people that make the difference, which is sorta my main beef with overpopulating new players' experiences with NPCs.


Yeah...I know it needs more thought than I have given it. I am sure there is a right way to have new players not be lumped into NPC corps, but I am really not sure how to implement it successfully right now
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#39 - 2015-07-15 17:01:30 UTC
I think WOW has something like that, you may as well just go there.

It's this way Arrow
Jenshae Chiroptera
#40 - 2015-07-15 17:03:49 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
I think WOW... is this way Arrow
Roll
Are you a L337 bot?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.