These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Lets have a Mining Revamp Devs!?

Author
Lady Areola Fappington
#81 - 2015-07-15 12:56:57 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Its the sheer sense of entitlement that you CODE people have, its astounding. tell you what though, if CODE actually came into null and took proper sov, rather than deluding yourselfs with this entire highsec sov nonsense, id be willing to listen to you, but not before then.



Yes, because saying "LoL play the way I want you to, ganker scrub" comes purely from a position of humility and acceptance of other people's play styles.


Excuse me sir, would you mind addressing the plank in your eye, before giving me a hand with the speck in mine?

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#82 - 2015-07-15 12:59:37 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

Excuse me sir, would you mind addressing the plank in your eye, before giving me a hand with the speck in mine?


I've always thought that this was very allegorical about the average miner.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#83 - 2015-07-15 13:05:52 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Its the sheer sense of entitlement that you CODE people have, its astounding. tell you what though, if CODE actually came into null and took proper sov, rather than deluding yourselfs with this entire highsec sov nonsense, id be willing to listen to you, but not before then.



Yes, because saying "LoL play the way I want you to, ganker scrub" comes purely from a position of humility and acceptance of other people's play styles.


Excuse me sir, would you mind addressing the plank in your eye, before giving me a hand with the speck in mine?


not at all, i dont mind CODE ganking and doing what CODE does, but, please, for the love of BoB, knock the chip off your shoulder. I mean come on "Saviour of High Sec" and "High Sec Sov Holders", you people act religious and James315 is your ******* pope.
This thread was about how to revamp mining as a mechanic, not about CODE. So, one last time, if you have nothing constructive to add to the thread about how mining mechanics can be changed in such a way as to improve them, please leave.
Lady Areola Fappington
#84 - 2015-07-15 13:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

I've always thought that this was very allegorical about the average miner.



I'd have to say i agree, yep. There's a pretty steady level of hypocrisy falling out of the typical miner who hates gankers. "I just want to be left alone to play the game like I want. Someone should stop those other people from playing the game like they want!"


Now, to get on-topic, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the entire concept of mineral mining as we know it in Eve is basically flawed. The core mechanic of it just doesn't work well with the way Eve plays now, and no matter how many band-aids we try to stick on this sucking chest wound, it isn't going to be fixed.

I honestly think we should just scrap the whole idea of a player directly controlling the base resource acquisition process. Boiled down to the basics, all mining is ends up being "generate X units of resource out of thin air in Y time minus skill level. To fix mining, that equation needs to change into "Resources=Time minus skill level minus player activity level multiplied by risk"

I personally don't know of a good way to do that.

Kestral Anneto wrote:

not at all, i dont mind CODE ganking and doing what CODE does, but, please, for the love of BoB, knock the chip off your shoulder. I mean come on "Saviour of High Sec" and "High Sec Sov Holders", you people act religious and James315 is your ******* pope.
This thread was about how to revamp mining as a mechanic, not about CODE. So, one last time, if you have nothing constructive to add to the thread about how mining mechanics can be changed in such a way as to improve them, please leave.



As much as I hate to resort back to the playground, I will. Make me. You have just as much ability to impact and influence both myself and CODE as any other Swingin' Joe out there.

You don't like the chip on CODE's shoulder, well, go knock it off. If you can't......whelp, I dunno wot to tell you.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#85 - 2015-07-15 13:21:20 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
I mean come on "Saviour of High Sec" and "High Sec Sov Holders", you people act religious and James315 is your ******* pope.


Tell me you can't picture this face doffing a long white miter. I dare you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2015-07-15 13:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Maybe have introduce a varient of the Rorq that could actively mine moons?

I'd rather go with an old idea that current moon extractors should be replaced with some sort of "orbital industrial laser" that "chips" on moons when activated, creating debris in space to be mined by mining ships for moon goo.

There you go, uses either current or any replacement mechanics for mining, offers natural opportunities for players to interact in space, don't shake up global economy in unmanageable ways unless you are specifically aiming at revamp.
Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2015-07-15 13:48:08 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Maybe have introduce a varient of the Rorq that could actively mine moons?

I'd rather go with an old idea that current moon extractors should be replaced with some sort of "orbital industrial laser" that "chips" on moons when activated, creating debris in space to be mined by mining ships for moon goo.

There you go, uses either current or any replacement mechanics for mining, offers natural opportunities for players to interact in space, don't shake up global economy in unmanageable ways unless you are specifically aiming at revamp.


So sort of like the planet crackers from Dead Space? I fully support that idea, it would be awesome.
Lady Areola Fappington
#88 - 2015-07-15 13:54:53 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Maybe have introduce a varient of the Rorq that could actively mine moons?

I'd rather go with an old idea that current moon extractors should be replaced with some sort of "orbital industrial laser" that "chips" on moons when activated, creating debris in space to be mined by mining ships for moon goo.

There you go, uses either current or any replacement mechanics for mining, offers natural opportunities for players to interact in space, don't shake up global economy in unmanageable ways unless you are specifically aiming at revamp.



What I'd like to see (and sadly it's likely pretty impossible in Eve), is something more along the lines of a "capture" mechanic for mining.

Along the lines of, a miner (or more preferably a mining group) finds an asteroid. They have to scan and analyze it to determine mining yield. Then using something like tractor beams, built-on rockets, or the like, they have to physically move the asteroid from it's location to a deployable type dohickey elsewhere, for it to be broken down into minerals. Maybe throw in a few steps and some time lag for refining, to make group/corp style play more attractive. Then they can take the minerals, and do what they will.

Every step of the way, make it something that requires active attention on the part of the miners. Include some PVP risk in the endeavour, then make the payoff be worth it. No more "park ship start beams and wait".

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Jhani Bralhast
#89 - 2015-07-15 14:01:52 UTC
Seen this thread and wanted to toss my two cents in as I'm pretty well 99% a miner in this game. That's pretty much all I do because I want to branch out into major manufacturing, which in of itself is a very long and tough slog with much dedication before seeing any profitable results, but I digress.

To me it seems the majority of gripes by miners focuses not on making it 'easier' (which would be a cop-out) but the balance of effort and reward offered in mining with the way it's currently set up in the game.

Miners are gank targets; they will always be gank targets. This dynamic will never change as it is based on player behavior and is not dependent on system security ratings. But perhaps it is frustrating having a perpetually-painted bulls-eye on your back while also participating in one of the most mundane and unrewarding activities in the EVE universe. Mining - as it currently is in this game - is not a skill. Anyone can do it and make a small fortune of pocket change within a short period and investment of skill points.

Anyone who commits to mining as a primary career should be rewarded for such efforts somehow, making a career miner a more specialized and rewarding profession than it currently is - but perhaps also more interactive and challenging in order to both increase player stimulation and weed out the 'AFK miners'.

Some previous posters in this thread may have touched upon similar ideas which influenced me, so I do not claim sole credit for the following suggestions:


  • An 'expert' mining strip miner/laser that requires constant manual re-calibration in order to extract the most quantity and/or most exotic minerals efficiently. This would pretty muck kill the 'AFK miner' and make the most-efficient mining a very intensive skill - also possibly diverting one's attention away from one's defense.
  • Mining probes which could scan hidden asteroid belts that others would not find or reach so easily.
  • The ability to pay off NPC belt rats to avoid harassment while mining. I envision a different way of 'dealing' with hostile NPC's as a means to encourage more miners into low-sec mining, where the more-powerful rats would otherwise mean miners might need an escort to survive. One used to be able to pay pirates a ransom in order to be released unharmed in the age of sail. Why not in space?
  • Some minute exotic minerals in all asteroids that could be extracted by the most-skilled miners and refiners. Would perhaps encourage miners to attempt manufacturing if given a wider variety of minerals, even in tiny quantities.
  • Longer re-spawn times on common asteroid belts in higher-populated systems. This would force career high-sec miners to go out and hunt and explore for more resources.


These ideas are not intended to make mining easier, but to make it far more player interactive and rewarding for hardcore miners while also making such rewards more difficult for the more casual or multi-account miner to exploit at the same time.

The lack of such rewards doesn't dissuade me from being a miner. I enjoy the idea of building and creating as opposed to the constant pew-pew that dominates the universe around me. It will always be my goal, but a little bit of glamor and respect for my chosen profession wouldn't be a bad thing, either.

Oh well, back to the asteroid fields. My mining crystals are getting cold and my manufacturing queues are almost finished... Big smile
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#90 - 2015-07-15 14:02:27 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
not at all, i dont mind CODE ganking and doing what CODE does, but, please, for the love of BoB, knock the chip off your shoulder. I mean come on "Saviour of High Sec" and "High Sec Sov Holders", you people act religious and James315 is your ******* pope.

He is our Saviour and not our pope. He is also your Saviour and you should accept him and comply with his commandments.

Kestral Anneto wrote:

This thread was about how to revamp mining as a mechanic, not about CODE. So, one last time, if you have nothing constructive to add to the thread about how mining mechanics can be changed in such a way as to improve them, please leave.

Before you derailed this thread and made it about bashing honourable New Order Agents I made a totally valid remark that you can't change the mining without changing the miners first. They will not accept the new system if they can't AFK mine in isolation. You failed to respond to that...
Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2015-07-15 14:05:09 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Maybe have introduce a varient of the Rorq that could actively mine moons?

I'd rather go with an old idea that current moon extractors should be replaced with some sort of "orbital industrial laser" that "chips" on moons when activated, creating debris in space to be mined by mining ships for moon goo.

There you go, uses either current or any replacement mechanics for mining, offers natural opportunities for players to interact in space, don't shake up global economy in unmanageable ways unless you are specifically aiming at revamp.



What I'd like to see (and sadly it's likely pretty impossible in Eve), is something more along the lines of a "capture" mechanic for mining.

Along the lines of, a miner (or more preferably a mining group) finds an asteroid. They have to scan and analyze it to determine mining yield. Then using something like tractor beams, built-on rockets, or the like, they have to physically move the asteroid from it's location to a deployable type dohickey elsewhere, for it to be broken down into minerals. Maybe throw in a few steps and some time lag for refining, to make group/corp style play more attractive. Then they can take the minerals, and do what they will.

Every step of the way, make it something that requires active attention on the part of the miners. Include some PVP risk in the endeavour, then make the payoff be worth it. No more "park ship start beams and wait".


I'd say that would actually be doable, if you modified the Rorq and Orca into processing ships, and turned the current mining ships into tugs that would be the only ships able to tow the rocks to the processing ships, i doubt it would take that much to do.
It would be good because it would require the rora and orca's to go into the belts.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2015-07-15 14:10:28 UTC
My orca is with me at the belt. All the time since I got it. Yesterday. XD

That refitting and huge bays are so awesome! Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Lt Motion
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2015-07-15 14:24:30 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
not really, whats it matter to you how someone else plays the game? they are doing a vital service that keeps the game turning.
I mine everything, gas, ore and ice. I also do PvP, who cares how i play? why dont you CODE people mind your own crap and stay out of how other people play?


To be honest I don't think its a matter of them telling you how to play. Its more a matter of them playing the way they want to, and you not liking the way they want to play. Milking tears now and then is fun. This is eve, nobody should be risk free. That's why people like us go and suicide, its fun. And especially fun when the suicide gank doesn't work out, then its just hilarious.( I fail 50% of my ganks cause I go alone lol )

But on the topic of this thread. Yes please CCP. Please make mining more interactive, its worse than afktaring.
Lady Areola Fappington
#94 - 2015-07-15 14:26:42 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:


I'd say that would actually be doable, if you modified the Rorq and Orca into processing ships, and turned the current mining ships into tugs that would be the only ships able to tow the rocks to the processing ships, i doubt it would take that much to do.
It would be good because it would require the rora and orca's to go into the belts.


That would be pretty nifty, yeah. One thing I'd like to do is make the entire mining "chain" complex enough that one person couldn't do it easily, even with a bunch of multiboxing.

You could have a skill set for actually finding and scanning the rocks, a skillset for slicing the best chunks off, a skillset for tugging them to the processor, a skillset for the processor itself, then a skillset for hauling the finished goods away.

Make each step something a person has to be actually interacting with the Eve world, with a chance to be interrupted. Make it WORTH trying to interrupt the process, with some risk involved.

If something like that were implemented, there could also be an NPC "fill in" for the skill sets a single pilot didn't have, only with vastly more inefficient outcomes. Make it so yes, a single person could go from asteroid to finished mineral, but doing so wouldn't be anywhere near as good as having an actual group. Along those lines, make the actual "interaction" portions complex enough that simple multiboxing couldn't overcome it. From least to most efficient, single person to multiboxer to actual group.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#95 - 2015-07-15 14:30:47 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:


I'd say that would actually be doable, if you modified the Rorq and Orca into processing ships, and turned the current mining ships into tugs that would be the only ships able to tow the rocks to the processing ships, i doubt it would take that much to do.
It would be good because it would require the rora and orca's to go into the belts.


That would be pretty nifty, yeah. One thing I'd like to do is make the entire mining "chain" complex enough that one person couldn't do it easily, even with a bunch of multiboxing.

You could have a skill set for actually finding and scanning the rocks, a skillset for slicing the best chunks off, a skillset for tugging them to the processor, a skillset for the processor itself, then a skillset for hauling the finished goods away.

Make each step something a person has to be actually interacting with the Eve world, with a chance to be interrupted. Make it WORTH trying to interrupt the process, with some risk involved.

If something like that were implemented, there could also be an NPC "fill in" for the skill sets a single pilot didn't have, only with vastly more inefficient outcomes. Make it so yes, a single person could go from asteroid to finished mineral, but doing so wouldn't be anywhere near as good as having an actual group. Along those lines, make the actual "interaction" portions complex enough that simple multiboxing couldn't overcome it. From least to most efficient, single person to multiboxer to actual group.



I would prefer to see a way faster option to do it with multiple players or low/null sec only stuff (structures) than a crappy yield from start to finish, 52% refining in a highsec pos is already bad enough.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”

Delightful Delicacy
Doomheim
#96 - 2015-07-15 14:35:40 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:


I'd say that would actually be doable, if you modified the Rorq and Orca into processing ships, and turned the current mining ships into tugs that would be the only ships able to tow the rocks to the processing ships, i doubt it would take that much to do.
It would be good because it would require the rora and orca's to go into the belts.


That would be pretty nifty, yeah. One thing I'd like to do is make the entire mining "chain" complex enough that one person couldn't do it easily, even with a bunch of multiboxing.

You could have a skill set for actually finding and scanning the rocks, a skillset for slicing the best chunks off, a skillset for tugging them to the processor, a skillset for the processor itself, then a skillset for hauling the finished goods away.

Make each step something a person has to be actually interacting with the Eve world, with a chance to be interrupted. Make it WORTH trying to interrupt the process, with some risk involved.

If something like that were implemented, there could also be an NPC "fill in" for the skill sets a single pilot didn't have, only with vastly more inefficient outcomes. Make it so yes, a single person could go from asteroid to finished mineral, but doing so wouldn't be anywhere near as good as having an actual group. Along those lines, make the actual "interaction" portions complex enough that simple multiboxing couldn't overcome it. From least to most efficient, single person to multiboxer to actual group.


Awesome idea! Let's over complicate mining so nobody does it any more and people quit instead. Win win.
Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#97 - 2015-07-15 14:46:50 UTC
I like how the OP completely glossed over my on point, relevant and totally applicable post in this thread.

CODE. is your mining revamp.

Adapt or die.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.

Lady Areola Fappington
#98 - 2015-07-15 14:57:10 UTC
Delightful Delicacy wrote:


Awesome idea! Let's over complicate mining so nobody does it any more and people quit instead. Win win.


I've never understood this mantra. People have been complaining about the boredom of mining forever. By necessity, any revamp of mining that makes things less boring is going to up the "complexity" level.

I mean, I know there are a few people in Eve who treat playing like a job, and I really hope they're in the vast minority.

So yes, make mining more complex and random! Make missions more complex and random! The more risk we inject, the greater the challenge, and more fun the game is. If I just want to see a number increment, I'll go play Progress Quest.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2015-07-15 15:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kestral Anneto
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
I like how the OP completely glossed over my on point, relevant and totally applicable post in this thread.

CODE. is your mining revamp.

Adapt or die.


ok then, come out into null and gank me then. CODE isn't a mining mechanic revamp, it is a symptom of the problem, which is mining is to easy to afk.
Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#100 - 2015-07-15 15:05:55 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
I like how the OP completely glossed over my on point, relevant and totally applicable post in this thread.

CODE. is your mining revamp.

Adapt or die.


ok then, come out into null and gank me then. CODE isn't a mining mechanic revamp, it is a symptom of the problem, whihc is ming is to easy to afk.


The only thing we're a symptom of is impending change to Highsec. You keep beating this null drum when null isn't in need of saving. Why don't you come on out to highsec and mine here? I bet I know why; because of us. We are the biggest and single most effective change to mining since we all started our Saviors work.

We do plenty of work in null and low. You should check our alliance killboard.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.