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Newbros and Eve going forward

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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#41 - 2015-07-13 13:55:51 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
It's embarrassing.

Or learning that their preconceptions were in error. Then months or even years later looking back and realizing, if they stuck in there, that they really had no clue when they started even though they thought they did at some early point. imo mostly baggage from other games as EVE is pretty different. For some anyway, especially having only played the current gen of mmo's since say maybe WoW. None of that really prepares them for EVE, may even make EVE harder for them to start. There have been games that were EVE like, such as SWG pre-CU (one example), but that was a long time ago and before the time of most current players discovering that mmo's even existed.

Oh and yes, EVE is dying™
You know how long that has been dropped into this forum and in game chat on a weekly or even daily basis, OP? You speak of years, which you have not played, but EVE is dying™ has been the mantra of some for almost a decade. It's been said for so long, likely those people had kittens that grew to old age and died already, or close to it now. EVE is dying™ thus we must totally change the direction of the game right now today or there is doom doom doom and you will be sooo sorry you will you'll see you'll see. Pro tip one: if you want to be taken seriously then forget about EVE is dying™ when doing the chat chat thang. It's not.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-07-13 14:18:43 UTC
I would add that if you are open about not knowing WTF you are doing, there is a shitload of people who will be willing to teach you pretty much anything. We all started as complete clueless player in this game. The first time I joined a corp for PvP, I was open about it and learned a lot. I'm still a scrub but I learned much more than if I had stayed out of it just trying to figure it out.

Everyone can do this if they accept the fact they might not be the second coming of the christ to this game.
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2015-07-13 14:21:53 UTC
Sento Ormand wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sento Ormand wrote:
Angelica you are definitely wrong. You are talking as a player, not a dev. New players are almost objectively a good thing in the eyes of a dev, and should be as players. You all lose nothing for new players coming into the game. More content and more mistakes to exploit. Sure some players won't make it, but Eve doesn't give players a chance in a lot of ways.


And yet here we are. That means there are at least some people who like it. Hell many of us started playing when the game was WAY harder (oddly enough, the game GREW then, now with kinder-gentler EVE....not so much),

People like you mean well, but you got it backwards. Dumbing down the game (make no mistake, this is what you are advocating) doesn't help new players who wouldn't make it anyways, while at the same time it turns off experienced players who like a complex game.


That is not true at all. You all clearly know nothing about game design. You have to teach people how to play the game, Eve doesn't do that. There should always be a learning period in the game. Core things about Eve are not taught and it is a huge week point.

The game has lasted 12 years like this.
Whats that say about your game design logic bud?
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2015-07-13 14:42:46 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why do you guys need it easier than the tens of thousands before you?

Answer it! Lol

Still waiting. Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2015-07-13 14:55:30 UTC
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
Everybody here has been newbro once, so each new player needs to suffer through all that we did earlier, too.



True. Everyone has been a newbro.

But the more time passes, the larger the gap between new newbros and vets.

And this actually has a bigger impact on non combat related stuff, shooting stuff is easy, a year or so and you can be at a good point with your pew pew skills., even less if you focus on just specific doctrines and don't go blanket

But take mining, trading, industry. A newer player, can't compete with the old guy that has multiple accounts set up with dedicated toons with perfect skills, huge aamounts of stockpiled ****, insane amount of isks, possibility to operate at a loss if needed, and so on.

And the gap only grows larger as time passes really.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-07-13 14:58:32 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
Everybody here has been newbro once, so each new player needs to suffer through all that we did earlier, too.



True. Everyone has been a newbro.

But the more time passes, the larger the gap between new newbros and vets.

And this actually has a bigger impact on non combat related stuff, shooting stuff is easy, a year or so and you can be at a good point with your pew pew skills., even less if you focus on just specific doctrines and don't go blanket

But take mining, trading, industry. A newer player, can't compete with the old guy that has multiple accounts set up with dedicated toons with perfect skills, huge aamounts of stockpiled ****, insane amount of isks, possibility to operate at a loss if needed, and so on.

And the gap only grows larger as time passes really.

That gap existed for over a decade and didn't matter. All skills cap at V. The issue is purely based on the egos of those who think they need to catch up. Do you run around IRL blaming old people for being around longer and having more experience? No. And that's the same thing.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-07-13 14:59:06 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Most support roles in a fleet can be attained within 1 month of training and be about 80% as effective as a veteran.
And 50% of new players quit before that even happens. What was the 90 day retention rate? 5%?

I get that bittervets look at a 2 month train for a single skill and think a 1 month train for an entire ship isn't bad. But when talking about the NPE try to keep the "It's not that long" timeframes under 48 hours.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2015-07-13 15:01:04 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Most support roles in a fleet can be attained within 1 month of training and be about 80% as effective as a veteran.
And 50% of new players quit before that even happens. What was the 90 day retention rate? 5%?

I get that bittervets look at a 2 month train for a single skill and think a 1 month train for an entire ship isn't bad. But when talking about the NPE try to keep the "It's not that long" timeframes under 48 hours.

No new player needs to wait a month to participate. Fit a griffin, skill for a day, learn to orbit. When you pop go reship, costs a million. Done.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-07-13 15:11:13 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Most support roles in a fleet can be attained within 1 month of training and be about 80% as effective as a veteran.
And 50% of new players quit before that even happens. What was the 90 day retention rate? 5%?

I get that bittervets look at a 2 month train for a single skill and think a 1 month train for an entire ship isn't bad. But when talking about the NPE try to keep the "It's not that long" timeframes under 48 hours.


You can start being usefull in less than a month. The real issue is the amount of newbies who think they are useless before they finished a training plan 100%. Getting in a maulus does not take a month and provide nearly the same effect as a celestis. If you are in a corp that really accept newbies for what they are, they'll take you on board even in a fail ship so you can see what is up ahead of the skill trains and guide you through it all. You are definately not the most usefull member of a fleet when rocking a maulus in a vexor fleet but you are still there, participating in a fleet and learning how it is and how it will be when you "level up" to cruisers. Those steps are the one many players seem to want to skip and then fail to realize there is a lot to learn there.

I can't fly with people because I can't use X ship is a BS argument especially now that pretty much all role have T1 variant in a rather well designed form.

I can't fly with peeps because I don't know WTF I'm doing makes more sense but you won't learn anything if you don't ask and go with people anyway.

A good part of the "issue" is community bound with new player not understanding how the "lower" ship can work and many older player not being willing to share the info because :reasons:.

If CCP has anything to change to help newbies get involved in this game, they have to find a way to direct new players toward "teachers".
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#50 - 2015-07-13 15:12:40 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
But the more time passes, the larger the gap between new newbros and vets.

This isn't a vertical game. In fact I often prefer to play with my lower SP alts which are quite capable and under a year of training.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#51 - 2015-07-13 15:19:42 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
But the more time passes, the larger the gap between new newbros and vets.

This isn't a vertical game. In fact I often prefer to play with my lower SP alts which are quite capable and under a year of training.


OMG so well said. Avatars should have the above bolded phrase tattooed to their left arse cheek upon creation lol.

Many MMOs are 'vertical games' where people worry about 'catching up'. Hell, it's a common question among many games. A game like EVE (where SP is only one factor and it's never ever to late to start) is baffling to the average MMO gamer, they think they will be 'behind' forever, they do't get that you can compete SP wise with even the most 'elite' (in terms of SP) players within a time frame measured in months (not even years).

It's another reason why I hate standard MMOs, They did not create it (human nature did), but they do foster a very fail way of thinking about things.
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-07-13 15:21:57 UTC
So, the thread has a couple of negative posters dominate it. That alone doesn't make them form the majority of players in EVE. Have you gotten folks in your newbros corp yet? Most of your recruiting has to be in game. The forums only have a portion of the audience.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2015-07-13 15:25:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You are definately not the most usefull member of a fleet when rocking a maulus in a vexor fleet but you are still there
Which is also something to be careful of. Players can tell when they're only there to be fodder/do the job nobody else wants.

Aim higher. What would that player need to have in hand to actually be a useful member of the fleet? And if CCP can provide that, why shouldn't they?
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-07-13 15:26:12 UTC
Sento Ormand wrote:
Fine, if you all want the game to stay how it is, the game will end. The player base is declining for a reason. You all didn't have it harder. Every year that passes puts another year between the new players and the old. That is a huge disadvantage. If you don't want the game to change, it won't, and the game will die because of it.



Basically, if disagreement is enough to cancel the effort, then the corp would have failed anyway. But if it can be moved past, and productive action still taken, then perhaps EVE Uni will eventually have a rival?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-07-13 16:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Aerasia wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You are definately not the most usefull member of a fleet when rocking a maulus in a vexor fleet but you are still there
Which is also something to be careful of. Players can tell when they're only there to be fodder/do the job nobody else wants.

Aim higher. What would that player need to have in hand to actually be a useful member of the fleet? And if CCP can provide that, why shouldn't they?


There is a difference between not being the most usefull and being useless. E-war frig/cruisers are always usefull. More so when flying with doctrine of the right type but they never get to be useless. The only thing that people need to remember is that the newbie might need positive reinforcement for his situation the encourage him to keep coming to fleets while he slowly but surely skill up toward main doctrine ships. Make the guy realise he is helpfull instead of just noticing who got the final blow on a KM. The community has to change how it view stuff. The game provide step ladders to climb already.

As for what CCP should provide, there are a few T1 module I would like to be fittable from scratch without having to get a skill book for it but that is pretty much it. Most stuff that every player consider baseline should probably be baseline from a character point of view IMO.
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-07-13 16:25:39 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
The problem with being a new player is this:

It's embarrassing.

We're eve-dumb, so we want to hide our dumbness by not exposing to everyone in our brand new "we accept newbros" corporation just how unknowing we are. There's not a single solo activity we can "win". The only chance we have to "win" is to join a corporation and expose our naivety.

So the choice is - Go solo and be bored as excrement because there's nothing we can do effectively/efficiently(compared to all the chest thumping and epeenery as demonstrated in every chat and forum).

Or join a corp and have a bunch of dudes who's sole purpose of allowing us to join being our exploitation to further their own personal agendas at the expense of our time and training queues, all the while opening ourselves up to potential condescending remarks and constant reminders of how little we can actually contribute on a consistent basis.

There needs to be one thing, all new players need is 1 thing we feel we can do/accomplish on equal footing with "veterans" that isn't boring ass station-station hauling.

Like, we can't "join a pvp fleet and tackle" 24/7. As a new player, there's way more down time than active time. Like I personally am reaching the point where I feel I can at least do some things. But in all honesty, those first couple of months was more an exercise of willpower than having an enjoyable experience.


Most support roles in a fleet can be attained within 1 month of training and be about 80% as effective as a veteran. The rest come from experience which you will not get solo anyway. It's hard to understand how to position a support damping wing around your main fleet if you are always solo...


Logi 5 or go home, noob


I see scythe and oneiros in fleet all the time. They require racial cruiser IV to be stable IIRC.

Celestis are baller too.

Blackbird is the ultimate wildcard. You never know if it will really work but when it does, you know the guy on the recieving end is probably swearing like a sailor.

Also, some fleet can be run with logi trained for Minmatar frigate IV and we all know this is quite the long train right...

You can run the Remote Cap logi at really low SP and I'll take an unstable scythe that turns it repps on and off over no scythe at all, any day every day.
Tyrendian Biohazard
The Bastards
Sedition.
#57 - 2015-07-13 16:47:10 UTC
As a streamer and someone who has used that platform for two and a half years to help new players get into the game, I can safely say 100% that the mechanics do not need to be changed to help new players. The most common thing that comes across my stream is the misconception of EVE. In short, a lot of people approach EVE not thinking of it from a Sandbox perspective. They don't immediately think "Hey, I could be scammed on the market", or "Is this person going to attack me". They go through the career tutorial as if they were questing in any other MMO (unfortunately).

There are a lot of things that warn you about some of the bad things that can happen. There is a safety setting for accidentally shooting another player and having CONCORD blow up your ship. There is a warning that you receive if you try to leave high security space. Even one of the career agent missions specifically destroys your ship just to give you a taste of how cold and harsh EVE can be.

The problem (and the best thing in my opinion) is that is is a sandbox. You can't just allow mechanics to be changed to ease people into it. Additionally, what happens when suddenly the mechanics are switched on a new player from "easy and learning" to "hard and what the hell happened to my ship and ISK"? You'll get a whole lot of "this isn't what I signed up for" and quit.

A lot of veterans, and especially those that help new players, can really point out the type of people that will go far in this game. Threads like this one show how the mentality of approaching things as challenges to overcome rather than obstacles in the way.

A lot of people have given recommendations on how to deal with your war targets. From EWAR ships to tactics. There are so many ways to overcome the things you encounter. You could have looked to see who else was at war with PIRAT and saw that our group was as well, and planned a joint operation with a seasoned group of people.

Feel free to drop by or shoot me a mail if you have questions. I'm always ready to get new blood into the game. It means there will be more targets for me to shoot at down the road. Twisted

Twitch streamer and EVE NT tournament broadcaster.
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2015-07-13 16:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
Everybody here has been newbro once, so each new player needs to suffer through all that we did earlier, too.



True. Everyone has been a newbro.

But the more time passes, the larger the gap between new newbros and vets.

And this actually has a bigger impact on non combat related stuff, shooting stuff is easy, a year or so and you can be at a good point with your pew pew skills., even less if you focus on just specific doctrines and don't go blanket

But take mining, trading, industry. A newer player, can't compete with the old guy that has multiple accounts set up with dedicated toons with perfect skills, huge aamounts of stockpiled ****, insane amount of isks, possibility to operate at a loss if needed, and so on.

And the gap only grows larger as time passes really.

That gap existed for over a decade and didn't matter. All skills cap at V. The issue is purely based on the egos of those who think they need to catch up. Do you run around IRL blaming old people for being around longer and having more experience? No. And that's the same thing.



tbh i'm mostly talking about stuff that has not much to do with skills you can bring to V, i'm talking about a massive amount of ISK and resources accumulated over time. It is simple math really, if guys at time 0 all had the same possibilities, the further you move from the time 0, the greater the possible gap between a newbro and a older player, which also means a way fiercer competition than the ancient bitter vets had to face.

The ancient bitter vet had a possibility to became a space baron of industry, becaue he was more or less on par, wealth wise, with its competition. The less ancient vet maybe still had a chance, afterall the market is huge and can't be filled by just a handful. The guy starting today? Competing with guys that have TRILLIONS and a dozen accounts? Yeah, not gonna happen.

Please note the field where i grow the ****s i give about industry and trading and money is 100% barren, so this point doesn't really interest me, and i'm quite happy with my combat skills, and i only go around exploding stuff. So, yeah, i have 0 interest in this, personally, but stating that the newbro will eventually be on par with the bittervet (who will still be there, just exponentially wealthier) is falsehood.



That said.
Yeah i'd just cut all training times in half, frankly they're bullshit. The fact it took me 20something days for drone interfacing 5 or i don't even know how long for logi V or to get perfect skills on my incursion alt or how long is taking me to get fighters V on carrier alt doesn't make me say "ha, you paesant, you have to suffer as i did"
Training times aren't challenges to overcome, they're just long ass timers locking out stuff, also it makes no sense to have core fitting skills take as long as they do, they're literally the most important ones for a new player to be able to get into some basic doctrine, but let's be honest, having the skills to fly (just fly, not be really effective) a couple decent doctrines (please don't come and derptron me) is gonna take a couple months of very focused training, and im not even gonna consider costs. If a new player is locked out of pretty much 90% of the content for 2 months or more, he will likely say "well, **** it", unless he manages to enjoy the remaining 10%.
Daemeon Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2015-07-13 16:53:07 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why do you guys need it easier than the tens of thousands before you?

Answer it! Lol

Still waiting. Lol



Not that I really care... but by using your logic we should probable stop using fire, the wheel, and tools. Didn't need those before for thousands of years...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#60 - 2015-07-13 16:57:06 UTC
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
Everybody here has been newbro once, so each new player needs to suffer through all that we did earlier, too.
No we didn't. When I joined, half the features we have now didn't exist and griefing was far less frequent because the population was a lot more spread out. Plus my overview icons didn't suck. A newbie now has a much steeper learning curve with a lot more people out for them. Worse still, the people who are after them have had years to perfect the techniques to make sure they cause the maximum damage at minimum cost. The problem is figuring out how to help newbies learn the ropes quicker without giving massive benefits to vets.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.