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Continuation of the Discussion on the destroyed slave freighter
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Kontrahage
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-07-13 11:22:38 UTC
As this discussion has derailed the OP by his holyness, Lord Vaari, I encourage all
participating parties to continue in this new thread.

To all those new to it, here a short summary:

Yesterday a Phoebe Freeport Republic fleet fileding among others three carriers and a freighter
attacked sov structures in providence, asked for combat in various channels and were
subsequently destroyed.

As it tunred out the freighter held 1000 slaves, none of which survived.

Now it has been suggested that CVA is responsible for those deaths as they should have
investigated before opening fire or at least spare the freighter and hold it until the main battler
was over.

Others have argued that the fault lies with PFR for bringing these people to a battle and that CVA
cannnot be expected to hold their fire under attack to closer investigate a curiosity met on the field
before engaging in defence of their system.

To these points I will hold my tongue as I am not authorised to speak for CVA or IG.

However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#2 - 2015-07-13 11:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
The fault lies fully and soley with PFR.

PFR did wilfully, and knowingly, take a fleet to Providence with said freighter in tow.

The PFR commander accessed a fluid router, designated for Diplomatic Communications only and not some 'public channel, demanding a fight. That is not how you get one and is undiplomatic, rude and arrogant behaviour and having other members of the fleet join said channel to goad CVA into fighting further reinforces this.

When PFR forces didn't get their fight, they deliberately attacked Providence owned infrastructure, placing crews of those structures at risk of great harm and forcing a defence force to be mustered.

At no point from what I can assertain did PFR give any legitimate reason for the freighter to be present to CVA in the correct channels. At no point did they make overtures in the correct channel in a respectful manner to hand over the slaves or even declare they were carrying them so that the defence force commander could be made aware, in a timely fashion taking in to account the time for diplomats to process said information. Turning up and shooting at structures is not sufficient warning or a resonable declaration of intent under diplomatic behaviour.

The Providence forces attacked, and destroyed, the members of the hostile fleet. At no point did they owe those hostiles any quarter to state their purpose when this was a direct attack on their infrastructure. One doesn't ask kindly the purpose of a fleet when its shooting your home as other bandits are burning your yard (re:- Providence's defensive war against Northern Coalition)


PFR behaved undiplomatically, arrogantly, disrespectfully and at no time did they give any fair warning, or use proper protocal in communicating with CVA any intentions or declarations. CVA enforced their border control rules against an openly hostile force, who brought along a freighter filled with innocents for absolutely no discernable, logical orethical reason.

Based on this situation I strongly advise PFR to reprimand its fleet commander for undiplomatic behaviour. It is not Providence's responsibility to provide your pilots with 'entertainment' when they're fighting a serious defensive war for their homes.

I further emplore the PFR leadership to question why said fleet commander permitted and/or intended for a freighter to enter knowingly hostile territory in a fleet that fired the first shots by attacking Providence structures, and while carrying innocent lives.

Further, I strongly recommend PFR organise official and recognised diplomats to make overtures to CVA for reinstatement to the fluid router, with the express knowledge that only those official diplomats will conduct business in that channel. I recommend a full apology from PFR to CVA for the undiplomatic behaviour of that fleet and its members.

Lasty, I strongly urge PFR to take trsponsibility for the unethical, and under Scripture Law, illegal action in purchasing slaves with the intent of stuffing those poor souls into a freighter and sending them off in what can only obviously be seen as their deaths by accompanying a hostile aggressor fleet.

May God have mercy on your souls for the blood of those slaves that is on your hands, not CVA's.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-07-13 11:53:11 UTC
Kontrahage wrote:

However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.





I am also curious.


"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#4 - 2015-07-13 12:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Kontrahage wrote:
However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.


It is yet another unfortunate result of the liberal interstellar free market that allows for anyone of any nationality and social or legal standing to purchase slaves in defiance of both interstellar and Amarrian slave trade laws.

The SCC needs to be regulated. Trade must adhere to all interstellar and local laws. The slave trade is legally and spiritually permissible only by Amarr and Kingdom Holders and licensed slavers. These laws are established by both Amarrian and CONCORD authorities, and ratified by every member state.
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#5 - 2015-07-13 12:10:53 UTC
Kontrahage wrote:


However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.




When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#6 - 2015-07-13 12:14:13 UTC
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:


However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.




When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!



And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Kontrahage
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-07-13 12:16:05 UTC
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:


However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.




When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!


This just goes to show why not everybody can be allowed the responsibility that is the possession and formation of slaves.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#8 - 2015-07-13 12:19:38 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:
However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.


It is yet another unfortunate result of the liberal interstellar free market that allows for anyone of any nationality and social or legal standing to purchase slaves in defiance of both interstellar and Amarrian slave trade laws.

The SCC needs to be regulated. Trade must adhere to all interstellar and national laws. The slave trade is legally and spiritually permissible only by Amarr and Kingdom Holders and licensed slavers. These laws are established by both Amarrian and CONCORD laws, and ratified by every member state.


While I am a strong advocate for liberated markets, this is the one thing I strongly believe should be curtailed. I'm all for the free trade of goods and wares, but those slaves deserve to be kept under a Holder who will treat them as required under Scripture Law and Imperial Declarations, housed, looked after, fed and taught the Glories of God before eventual emancipation and rejoining with the other faithful. They should not be allowed to be purchased to be suffed into freighters or sacrificed by the millions by monsters like Nauplius and the PFR fleet commander and freighter pilot, or spend their lives toiling as indentured labour for unscrupulous Capsuleers and/or corporations with no hope of salvation or emancipation.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-07-13 12:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldfinch
We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died?

Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. It was two of us who had to find a way to share a compartment. We wonder if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling.






We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2015-07-13 12:25:04 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:


However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.




When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!



And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting.


No not at all I tried to talk to CVA in the diplomat channel until we where banned (our alliance) from said channel and then locked out of supposed Freeport's. We then tried to knock on the door with a little ammo (the vacuum of space is unforgiving I was not going to knock the door knocker)

But if CVA want to blow this out of proportion then so be it.
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2015-07-13 12:27:22 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:

We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died?

Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. We wonder to ourselves if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling.






We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident.



Note CVA called primary the freighter not the 3 hostile carriers the blood is on CVA hands, it was the carriers that tried to save the slaves
Yon Tu-Ka
Baozi-You-Rou
Northern Coalition.
#12 - 2015-07-13 12:29:19 UTC
Quote:
PFR behaved undiplomatically, arrogantly, disrespectfully and at no time did they give any fair warning, or use proper protocal in communicating with CVA any intentions or declarations. CVA enforced their border control rules against an openly hostile force, who brought along a freighter filled with innocents for absolutely no discernable, logical orethical reason.


It is at this point, that I'd like to point out, that our communication attempts in your diplomatic channel with the simple, yet effective question "Where do you live" got shut down by banning all PFR members in said diplomatic channel. Since therefore there was no way to communicate with you known to us, we started raising attention by other means.


OOC:
But still - we completely got what we wanted, though we hoped for CVA to bring a matchup in ships that were not such a counter to us. We set out with this fleet to achieve fun for our guys (this is no RP, I know) and we mostly got what we wanted. It was clear from the undock that we would die in a ball of fire. Thank you guys, for forming :)
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#13 - 2015-07-13 12:29:23 UTC
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Utari Onzo wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:


However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.




When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!



And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting.


No not at all I tried to talk to CVA in the diplomat channel until we where banned (our alliance) from said channel and then locked out of supposed Freeport's. We then tried to knock on the door with a little ammo (the vacuum of space is unforgiving I was not going to knock the door knocker)

But if CVA want to blow this out of proportion then so be it.



You came into a diplomatic channel asking for a fight, with no prior warning and with a hostile fleet in tow. Did you even once think of bloody well warning them before you undocked or consulted with them or did you imbue a large amout of alcohol and decided to wing it? Your arrogance speaks volumnes.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Yon Tu-Ka
Baozi-You-Rou
Northern Coalition.
#14 - 2015-07-13 12:31:08 UTC
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Goldfinch wrote:

We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died?

Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. We wonder to ourselves if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling.






We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident.



Note CVA called primary the freighter not the 3 hostile carriers the blood is on CVA hands, it was the carriers that tried to save the slaves


Yep, freighter died first. No attempts made to help/save/spare the unarmed freighter and to dispose of the massive hostile fleet around it first.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#15 - 2015-07-13 12:31:45 UTC
Yon Tu-Ka wrote:
Quote:
PFR behaved undiplomatically, arrogantly, disrespectfully and at no time did they give any fair warning, or use proper protocal in communicating with CVA any intentions or declarations. CVA enforced their border control rules against an openly hostile force, who brought along a freighter filled with innocents for absolutely no discernable, logical orethical reason.


It is at this point, that I'd like to point out, that our communication attempts in your diplomatic channel with the simple, yet effective question "Where do you live" got shut down by banning all PFR members in said diplomatic channel. Since therefore there was no way to communicate with you known to us, we started raising attention by other means.


OOC:
But still - we completely got what we wanted, though we hoped for CVA to bring a matchup in ships that were not such a counter to us. We set out with this fleet to achieve fun for our guys (this is no RP, I know) and we mostly got what we wanted. It was clear from the undock that we would die in a ball of fire. Thank you guys, for forming :)


As I stated before you turned up in a hostile fleet on their doorstep. They have no responsibility to answer your questions when you turn up with hostile intentions.

Ooc: i'm glad you had fun, but next time a forewarning before yall blob up at provi might have gotten a better fight for yourselves. Also note i'm not cva and my character is merely stating his strongly held beliefs

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Yon Tu-Ka
Baozi-You-Rou
Northern Coalition.
#16 - 2015-07-13 12:33:46 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Utari Onzo wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:


However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.




When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!



And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting.


No not at all I tried to talk to CVA in the diplomat channel until we where banned (our alliance) from said channel and then locked out of supposed Freeport's. We then tried to knock on the door with a little ammo (the vacuum of space is unforgiving I was not going to knock the door knocker)

But if CVA want to blow this out of proportion then so be it.



You came into a diplomatic channel asking for a fight, with no prior warning and with a hostile fleet in tow. Did you even once think of bloody well warning them before you undocked or consulted with them or did you imbue a large amout of alcohol and decided to wing it? Your arrogance speaks volumnes.


Well then, next time I am going to warn you that a question for a fight is about to be asked. Get a grip, we didn't even a response in the first place, but a ban of our members. You could have told us "No, we have to defend on another end of space" and we would have thought about our way. Hell, maybe even help your defense.

But you choose the way of ignorance and banning. We just reacted.
Yon Tu-Ka
Baozi-You-Rou
Northern Coalition.
#17 - 2015-07-13 12:36:03 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Yon Tu-Ka wrote:
Quote:
PFR behaved undiplomatically, arrogantly, disrespectfully and at no time did they give any fair warning, or use proper protocal in communicating with CVA any intentions or declarations. CVA enforced their border control rules against an openly hostile force, who brought along a freighter filled with innocents for absolutely no discernable, logical orethical reason.


It is at this point, that I'd like to point out, that our communication attempts in your diplomatic channel with the simple, yet effective question "Where do you live" got shut down by banning all PFR members in said diplomatic channel. Since therefore there was no way to communicate with you known to us, we started raising attention by other means.


OOC:
But still - we completely got what we wanted, though we hoped for CVA to bring a matchup in ships that were not such a counter to us. We set out with this fleet to achieve fun for our guys (this is no RP, I know) and we mostly got what we wanted. It was clear from the undock that we would die in a ball of fire. Thank you guys, for forming :)


As I stated before you turned up in a hostile fleet on their doorstep. They have no responsibility to answer your questions when you turn up with hostile intentions.

Ooc: i'm glad you had fun, but next time a forewarning before yall blob up at provi might have gotten a better fight for yourselves. Also note i'm not cva and my character is merely stating his strongly held beliefs


OOC: Again, we did not start the shooting without reason. Short version: We tried to get found on our way to Provi. Did not happen. We entered provi and the diplo channels and got banned. We then shot station and SBU to raise attention and then died. A lot of fun was had, for real. Never though we could take 3 carriers and a freighter 30+j through null without getting catched :D
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2015-07-13 12:40:50 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Utari Onzo wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:


However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.




When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!



And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting.


No not at all I tried to talk to CVA in the diplomat channel until we where banned (our alliance) from said channel and then locked out of supposed Freeport's. We then tried to knock on the door with a little ammo (the vacuum of space is unforgiving I was not going to knock the door knocker)

But if CVA want to blow this out of proportion then so be it.



You came into a diplomatic channel asking for a fight, with no prior warning and with a hostile fleet in tow. Did you even once think of bloody well warning them before you undocked or consulted with them or did you imbue a large amout of alcohol and decided to wing it? Your arrogance speaks volumnes.


You sir need to get your facts straight warning was served :



Channel ID: 2137543127
Channel Name: CVA-Diplo
Listener: Silent Cyborg
Session started: 2015.07.11 20:29:15

[ 2015.07.11 20:29:15 ] EVE System > Channel MOTD: Welcome to CVA-DiploCVA KOS-list - To check unknown status/file kos requests.CVA Main Site - Rules and NRDS explained so read this FAQCVA Local Checker - Local pilot checker (BETA!)Alliance Diplomats: Leo d'Green (on extended sick leave), xHjfx (Evemail if no convo response)Recruiting Coordinator: Contact Leo d'Green and xHjfxLooking to get off KOS-list? Mail ONE of the following for talks. KOS-Admins: Felton Fundenberger (EU TZ), rattlerund (US CST), Condor Amarr (AU TZ) , Agent Khanid (EU TZ) xHjfx (EU TZ - Evemail if no convo response)For TheCitadel access(intel channel) mail ALL of the following in the same mail. Read this first: http://forum.cva-eve.org/index.php?topic=3576.0Citadel Magistrates: Wildcard Trek, Max Sneak, Moebeus, Patrick Molter P-Fleet Access: TronyDue to huge amount of requests please allow at least ONE week for processing for Citadel access. NO PERSONAL ACCESS, CORPS/ALLIANCES ONLY. TheCitadel magistrates CAN NOT give you jumpbridge access or standings so DO NOT ASK THEM FOR IT! If you receive no response in TWO weeks send us another evemail.For Individual Recruitment Information see this forumFor Corporation Recruitment Information talk to our Recruiting Coordinator: Rush HeitusDo not Idle in this channel or you will be removed! This includes everyone except cva personnel.Note: Diplos will NOT pay exorbitant CSPAs.Applying for standings? Read this FIRST -> http://www.cva-eve.org/standings/ Read this MOTD before mailing
[ 2015.07.11 20:35:37 ] Silent Cyborg > any cva here?
[ 2015.07.11 20:38:28 ] Silent Cyborg > hello......
[ 2015.07.11 20:41:24 ] Agent Khanid > o7
[ 2015.07.11 20:42:33 ] Silent Cyborg > whats my alliance standing with you??
[ 2015.07.11 20:43:51 ] Manfred Stahler > you are red
[ 2015.07.11 20:48:19 ] Silent Cyborg > cool speaking to one of your diplos in convo
[ 2015.07.11 21:05:51 ] Silent Cyborg > we are bringing slaves to D-GTMI
Lord Kailethre
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
#19 - 2015-07-13 12:48:17 UTC
PFR should never have had these slaves. At all.
Slavery, legally speaking, is the dominion of holders in the Empire who are supposed to be raising and teaching them in a manner that is in accordance to the will of God.

Said freighter should never have had slaves in its hold, let alone been on field for combat operations.
At least these people are with God now, instead of with their captors.
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2015-07-13 13:02:19 UTC
Lord Kailethre wrote:
PFR should never have had these slaves. At all.
Slavery, legally speaking, is the dominion of holders in the Empire who are supposed to be raising and teaching them in a manner that is in accordance to the will of God.

Said freighter should never have had slaves in its hold, let alone been on field for combat operations.
At least these people are with God now, instead of with their captors.


Captors? think you forget something:
Silent Cyborg wrote:


When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!
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