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Dev blog: Summer of Sov - Nullsec PVE and Upgrades

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Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#61 - 2015-07-08 16:20:04 UTC
Edwin Wyatt wrote:
CCP needs to understand their own game better.

An ISK faucets is an activity that require next to no player input. Prime example, Moon mining.

Calling a PVE activity that should require player input an isk faucet is wrong, if you put in the time and effort, the rewards should be endless.

But we will let your subscription number continue to tell you how bad of a job you're doing CCP, and it speaks loud and clear.



You have literally no clue what you are talking about. I'm feeling generous because of so many dev blogs. So I'll help you to understand.

An isk faucet is an activity which literally generates isk out of nothing. Bounties (ratting) and NPC buy orders are isk faucets. Moon mining generates only an item, and at a set rate per moon.

The defining attribute as to whether something is an isk faucet or sink is simple: does it create or destroy isk? Any amount of materials (minerals, ores, gases, etc) is irrelevant.

Moon mining is passive income once you sell the goo for isk. But it is not an isk faucet.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#62 - 2015-07-08 16:20:13 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:
DaReaper wrote:


1) The spawn rate for anoms sounds great. as a former sov holder that was one of my biggest issues, was having enough rats for my members to run. This would help some, but more is needed


I call bullshit on that. Back in the day Tribal Band (in the end it had ~4k members) lived almost completely off Period Basis, which is a comparatively small region. Only few of those systems were actually upgraded and it was still a non-issue to chain-run high-end anomalies in systems with good truesec.

People should be forced to travel around to find PvE content and make isk rather than sit in a single system and make money with virtually zero risk involved.



we did, i rented 5 systems in WC, and you would not believe the bitching my people did when someone was runnign sanctums. The worst bitching was form the miners when someone took there ABC ore from the anomalies.. gods i wanted to smack people

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Edwin Wyatt
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2015-07-08 16:21:18 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Edwin Wyatt wrote:
CCP needs to understand their own game better.

An ISK faucets is an activity that require next to no player input. Prime example, Moon mining.

Calling a PVE activity that should require player input an isk faucet is wrong, if you put in the time and effort, the rewards should be endless.

But we will let your subscription number continue to tell you how bad of a job you're doing CCP, and it speaks loud and clear.




moon mining is not an isk faucet. You gather the resource of moon goo and you sell it to anothe rplayer. No new isk is added to the economy. So no, moon mining is not a faucet..

A Faucet is a device that adds isk to the economy out of thin air. Pirate bounties form killing NPC's is a faucet.

A Sink is something that removes isk from the economy... NPC sell orders is a sink, taxes are a sink, fees are a sink.

Moon mining is merly a passive income source. it only adds moon goo, not isk.



To bad CCP doesn't know anything about isk sinks. Why does it still costs 1 Billion isk to create an alliance, why does it only cost 2m per month for each member corp in an alliance. Their is better ways to balance isk in the game instead of nerfing PVE activities.

And you have been brain washed by nullsec holders. Moon mining in its current form is broken, and is the stem of all issues in null today.


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2015-07-08 16:22:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Querns wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
stuff
Sounds like they are trying to nerf the chain itself. I doubt you'll get much traction on getting this reversed, no matter how much you crow about a "safer nullsec."
I agree 100%, especially since safer nullsec (in general, not just from us) seems to be at least one of the goals and theres noone on CSM to push against a nerf like this.

It's not a goal. A sentiment does not automatically become rooted in deliberate intent if you feel strongly enough about it.

devblog wrote:
We are beginning with a set of tweaks to Nullsec wormhole connections in Aegis, intended to ease some of the concerns around WH power projection without negatively impacting wormhole residents or eliminating the ability of Nullsec entities to roam through wormholes.

It seems like the intent is to curb power projection through wormholes into nullsec. This imho means making it safer for the locals, because their would be killers have much harder time (or much lower probability) getting there to do the killing.

If this is not the deliberate intent of the change, then I wonder why they state it in the devblog and what the real intent is.

SSC Brokering Service
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#65 - 2015-07-08 16:22:53 UTC
Edwin Wyatt wrote:
Querns wrote:
Edwin Wyatt wrote:
CCP needs to understand their own game better.

An ISK faucets is an activity that require next to no player input. Prime example, Moon mining.

Calling a PVE activity that should require player input an isk faucet is wrong, if you put in the time and effort, the rewards should be endless.

But we will let your subscription number continue to tell you how bad of a job you're doing CCP, and it speaks loud and clear.


An ISK faucet is the opposite of what you think it is. "ISK faucet" refers to the generation of ISK by the server. Think of the entire game's ISK supply as existing in a huge barrel. An ISK faucet adds material to the bucket.

Moon miners don't generate ISK; they don't add to the content of the barrel. Moon miners simply shift around the material already in the barrel (actually, they make a small amount of ISK leak out of the barrel due to market transaction taxes.)

If you don't like that moon materials are expensive on the market, there are multiple vectors to combat this, only some of which require military might.


You looking at this a prespective of isk in game, Im looking at this as a perspective of isk in players pocket. PVE is about generating income, and has nothing to do with the overall amount of isk in the game. Moon mining regardless if it generates actual isk, puts income into players pockets without much effort.

If CCP wants to balance isk in the game, they need to learn a little something about economic inflation and not punish players putting in the effort and time.

Maybe economics 101 might help.



I still don;t think you understand economics 101. However, i agree with you moon mining needs to STOP BEING PASSIVE. It no longer generates fights, no one cares, its time to end it and let the miners mine it.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
TurboX3
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#66 - 2015-07-08 16:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: TurboX3
CCP - WHY WHY WHY WHY DO YOU DO THIS.......... I disagree with the CSM members "A significant decrease in the spawn rate of direct Nullsec to Nullsec wormhole connections".

This is OUTRAGEOUS - keep it as it is....





Nullsec Wormhole Connection and Quantum Flux Generator Changes
One final set of changes that we are implementing in Aegis is a set of tweaks to Nullsec wormhole spawning and Quantum Flux Generator upgrades. Some members of the CSM (I’ll let them identify themselves if they wish) approached us in recent weeks with balance concerns about wormhole travel for Nullsec entities. We took a look at their concerns and decided to make some tweaks to help ease them.

The changes we are making are not intended to kill strategic wormhole travel. We believe that wormhole travel provides an exciting and somewhat unpredictable way to roam across long distances. We are beginning with a set of tweaks to Nullsec wormhole connections in Aegis, intended to ease some of the concerns around WH power projection without negatively impacting wormhole residents or eliminating the ability of Nullsec entities to roam through wormholes.

These changes consist of:

A significant decrease in the spawn rate of direct Nullsec to Nullsec wormhole connections (which are not the primary method of WH roaming travel but are some of the hardest connections to counter with defensive play).
Small decreases in the spawn rate of random Null -> C5 and C5 -> Null connections. This change does not affect static connections.
A decrease in the lifetime of Nullsec WH connections to 16 hours (most were previously 24 hours).
We are also making some slight tweaks to the Quantum Flux Generator system upgrade in our July 14th release. These are intended as a slight buff to anyone who uses Quantum Flux Generators for PVE daytripping, while also addressing concerns expressed by some CSM members. With these changes we still don’t expect that most alliances will find the Quantum Flux Generators to be extremely valuable, but hopefully their PVE value should increase somewhat.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-07-08 16:27:30 UTC
Edwin Wyatt wrote:
Querns wrote:
Edwin Wyatt wrote:
CCP needs to understand their own game better.

An ISK faucets is an activity that require next to no player input. Prime example, Moon mining.

Calling a PVE activity that should require player input an isk faucet is wrong, if you put in the time and effort, the rewards should be endless.

But we will let your subscription number continue to tell you how bad of a job you're doing CCP, and it speaks loud and clear.


An ISK faucet is the opposite of what you think it is. "ISK faucet" refers to the generation of ISK by the server. Think of the entire game's ISK supply as existing in a huge barrel. An ISK faucet adds material to the bucket.

Moon miners don't generate ISK; they don't add to the content of the barrel. Moon miners simply shift around the material already in the barrel (actually, they make a small amount of ISK leak out of the barrel due to market transaction taxes.)

If you don't like that moon materials are expensive on the market, there are multiple vectors to combat this, only some of which require military might.


You looking at this a prespective of isk in game, Im looking at this as a perspective of isk in players pocket. PVE is about generating income, and has nothing to do with the overall amount of isk in the game. Moon mining regardless if it generates actual isk, puts income into players pockets without much effort.

If CCP wants to balance isk in the game, they need to learn a little something about economic inflation and not punish players putting in the effort and time.

Maybe economics 101 might help.


if you are going to try to be smug about your economic arguments you should at least know the correct definitions of the terms you are using.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#68 - 2015-07-08 16:27:48 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:

It seems like the intent is to curb power projection through wormholes into nullsec. This imho means making it safer for the locals, because their would be killers have much harder time (or much lower probability) getting there to do the killing.

If this is not the deliberate intent of the change, then I wonder why they state it in the devblog and what the real intent is.


It's just as much a hindrance to us using w-space and k to k holes to power project from nullsec as well. And I suspect that nullsec was the real target of this change. W-space dwellers are taking collateral damage from the side of the sledgehammer.
Javajunky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2015-07-08 16:27:49 UTC
Looks like someone is worried about null sec actually logging back in.

+1 for talking to the business side of the house....
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#70 - 2015-07-08 16:28:10 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Querns wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sounds like they are trying to nerf the chain itself. I doubt you'll get much traction on getting this reversed, no matter how much you crow about a "safer nullsec."
I agree 100%, especially since safer nullsec (in general, not just from us) seems to be at least one of the goals and theres noone on CSM to push against a nerf like this.

It's not a goal. A sentiment does not automatically become rooted in deliberate intent if you feel strongly enough about it.

devblog wrote:
We are beginning with a set of tweaks to Nullsec wormhole connections in Aegis, intended to ease some of the concerns around WH power projection without negatively impacting wormhole residents or eliminating the ability of Nullsec entities to roam through wormholes.

It seems like the intent is to curb power projection through wormholes into nullsec. This imho means making it safer for the locals, because their would be killers have much harder time (or much lower probability) getting there to do the killing.

If this is not the deliberate intent of the change, then I wonder why they state it in the devblog and what the real intent is.

The intent of the change is actually to curb power projection through the C5 -> nullsec highway.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#71 - 2015-07-08 16:29:48 UTC
I find much irony in that, after this effectively caused the downfall of the old NC, those changes are being reversed 4 years later.

(Ref: senior members of the coalition telling ME/RAGE/etc that their space (Geminate and Vale) wasn't worth saving anymore.)

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#72 - 2015-07-08 16:30:07 UTC
Well the anomaly changes read like an almost complete reversal of Greyscales failed nerf from 2011. Maybe all that empty space will be viable again. Hate to rub it in....actually no, I love doing it actually.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#73 - 2015-07-08 16:33:49 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
I find much irony in that, after this effectively caused the downfall of the old NC, those changes are being reversed 4 years later.

(Ref: senior members of the coalition telling ME/RAGE/etc that their space (Geminate and Vale) wasn't worth saving anymore.)

This is not really the case.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#74 - 2015-07-08 16:35:02 UTC
Was almost pissing my self in excitement on the +75% anomalies thing, left disappointed when 0 (ZERO) Rally Points were added.
Kant Boards
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-07-08 16:36:12 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Gideon Enderas wrote:
Why the heavy handed nerf to wormholes? I can understand the spawn rate reductions, but the 16 hour lifetime is absolutely stupid.
It makes perfect sense: it equals to less time when nullsec krabs need to stay docked. I'm sure it was supported by all CSMs.


Sorry about your low-risk pvp Oops
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2015-07-08 16:36:55 UTC
Edwin Wyatt wrote:

You looking at this a prespective of isk in game, Im looking at this as a perspective of isk in players pocket. PVE is about generating income, and has nothing to do with the overall amount of isk in the game. Moon mining regardless if it generates actual isk, puts income into players pockets without much effort.

If CCP wants to balance isk in the game, they need to learn a little something about economic inflation and not punish players putting in the effort and time.

Maybe economics 101 might help.

it is ... problematic ... for your argument when you botch the basic meaning of the terms being used and then try to talk down to people

if you thought that moon mining was an isk faucet you have a fundamental lack of understanding of, well, anything related to balancing the economy
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2015-07-08 16:38:48 UTC
I would also point out that nerf was directed at PL and us. The only two major groups using that mechanic to hit remote hostiles regularly. We are ok with it, I am sure PL might be a bit miffed though.

There is a compensating control but I don't think we will roll it out yet. Maybe later though!

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#78 - 2015-07-08 16:39:31 UTC
Querns wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
I find much irony in that, after this effectively caused the downfall of the old NC, those changes are being reversed 4 years later.

(Ref: senior members of the coalition telling ME/RAGE/etc that their space (Geminate and Vale) wasn't worth saving anymore.)

This is not really the case.


It's fairly close, one of the big problems with anomalies is the fact that so few systems would produce enough of the good ones to be worth doing, forcing everyone who wanted to rat to bundle up and trip all over each other while creating nice red Dotlan Beacons for everyone who wanted to come disrupt you.

That cause me and a lot of PVErs I know to make and keep high sec pve alts. These changes don't cure the disease, but they definitely lessen the symptoms.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2015-07-08 16:40:16 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:

Heh nice try.

Your unassailable empire was shrunk to a handful of regions, because under the new system (fozzie sov) it would not have been defensible. The CFC could do that only because those regions provide all the income you need, and then some. So congratulations, you're now living in a virtually unconquerable space, where you can AFKtar and make mad iskies w/o any significant risk whatsoever.

If large groups such as yours were forced to hold more space, said space would be more easily contested. You catching my drift?

Resources need to be limited, why would anyone fight over them if they weren't? That's some straight-forward logic that even you can understand. You're welcome.


our unassailable space shrunk because owning half of the entire map was not worth the effort and was not vital

when things become vital for us, anything in the way gets crushed

but let us discuss how insane your claim that if we were to own more space, it would be easier for smaller groups to carve out their own portion of that space than if we did not own that space, elaborate on that, let us talk about how your tiny worthless corp would have an easier time not getting brutally murdered as an example to everyone else if you attacked space we want vs. space we dont want
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2015-07-08 16:40:18 UTC
Querns wrote:
Ab'del Abu wrote:

Your unassailable empire was shrunk to a handful of regions, because under the new system (fozzie sov) it would not have been defensible. The CFC could do that only because those regions provide all the income you need, and then some. So congratulations, you're now living in a virtually unconquerable space, where you can AFKtar and make mad iskies w/o any significant risk whatsoever.

I love that everyone considers Imperium space unassailable by default. It is another instance of the most ingratiating position of surrender possible, and it makes me feel great every time I see it.


To be fair, no one in the current null situation has even remote chance of taking down your fort. I'd be pretty proud of that too. Smile