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Dev blog: Summer of Sov - Nullsec PVE and Upgrades

First post
Author
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#201 - 2015-07-09 20:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2015-07-09 20:42:56 UTC
The new meta. Snitches get Stitches.

Anyone that gets null nerfed gets invaded. Lol

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#203 - 2015-07-09 22:24:25 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
blue donut

lmbo

I think a better term nowadays would be blue croissant
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#204 - 2015-07-09 23:51:38 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
blue donut

lmbo

I think a better term nowadays would be blue croissant


I blame French localization.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#205 - 2015-07-10 01:39:41 UTC
Good changes all around with the exception of Incursions and ESS.

Suggestion for the Activity Defense Multipliers, Allow POS's in a limited way to contribute to the activity defense multipliers, both hostile and friendly. Similiar to the sov system of olde, but with severe limitations. Numbers could be generated to a working balanced system, I'm not going to do that just expressing the interest in this form of content to help keep capital ships somewhat useful.

Future group PVE, it would have to be incursion style content. There probably is a place for this but keeping it balanced while being profitable to non-multibox and non-multibox viable may be an issue, there's still probably some people using isboxer without mirror to run incursions.

Incursions, the basis of this is Sanshas raiding space and stealing pilots for drones/clones, After years of failing the Sansha's have given up on this endeavor and Incursions have stopped. The basis of incursions and the content they exclusively provide has no real purpose and should be migrated elsewhere and incursions removed.

ESS - This is a failed attempt at forcing content, just get rid of it, I mean you're about to remove how many SBU's from the game, the ESS can go with it.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#206 - 2015-07-10 05:45:39 UTC
SCom Thor wrote:
I very rarely write here, but this one is special, this time Fozzie really proved that he has 0 understanding of what drives EvE around.


Dude, I'll be short and blunt: YOU RETARDS DON'T HAVE THE SUBSCRIBERS TO FILL NULLSEC.
No, you don't even have enough to fill 10% of current nullsec system, even if everyone will move in today.
Granting carebears the ability to pile 1000/system does NOT benefit the game. Allowing them to pile 800 in a -0.1 system AGAIN does not benefit the game.

FFS get your heads out of your ass, it's clear as daylight: REDUCE the number of anoms/system so one system won't be enough for 100 carebears, increase their ISK/h so to motivate hisec mission runners to move into nullsec, and then come back for more suggestion.

Oh, but I bet you won't. I, at least, tried to profit from the loss and bet a huge amount on the fact that by February EvE online will be on full decline with no way to be stopped from disappearing by next summer.

Since you took us our favorite game, at least that's what we can make out of it.


Exactly. CCP, you have been encouraging players to clump up more and more, rather than encouraging them to spread out more.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#207 - 2015-07-10 05:47:07 UTC
Gideon Enderas wrote:
Aneu Angellus wrote:
PL Reddit thread is so much better than this one... especially where they cry a lot.


Yeah, this change specifically, all wormholes to and from and nullsec being reduced to 16 hours only is basically putting the nails in the coffin of wormhole space. PL used an in game tool to find content, this tool isn't new. It's been used by several wormhole groups before. Now that a large organized group is using this method to travel, somehow it's unfair.


That's how it always goes. Once a process gets industrialized, CCP has to nerf it. They could have just removed the API data pull so that you have to do your own scouting.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#208 - 2015-07-10 06:38:31 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
SCom Thor wrote:
I very rarely write here, but this one is special, this time Fozzie really proved that he has 0 understanding of what drives EvE around.


Dude, I'll be short and blunt: YOU RETARDS DON'T HAVE THE SUBSCRIBERS TO FILL NULLSEC.
No, you don't even have enough to fill 10% of current nullsec system, even if everyone will move in today.
Granting carebears the ability to pile 1000/system does NOT benefit the game. Allowing them to pile 800 in a -0.1 system AGAIN does not benefit the game.

FFS get your heads out of your ass, it's clear as daylight: REDUCE the number of anoms/system so one system won't be enough for 100 carebears, increase their ISK/h so to motivate hisec mission runners to move into nullsec, and then come back for more suggestion.

Oh, but I bet you won't. I, at least, tried to profit from the loss and bet a huge amount on the fact that by February EvE online will be on full decline with no way to be stopped from disappearing by next summer.

Since you took us our favorite game, at least that's what we can make out of it.


Exactly. CCP, you have been encouraging players to clump up more and more, rather than encouraging them to spread out more.


This entire sov patch is designed to make holding vast amounts of space impossible. Groups have been clumping up for their own survival. Whether there will be any new groups to take sov to fill the vacuum is a completely different story. I guess BL trolling/farming brave out of fountain was just the start.

If new blood is to get into nullsec and stay either the playerbase needs to sing kumbaya and go here ya go, or CCP needs to rework the skill system to allow new players a chance. Constantly changing meta's for doctrines is very skillpoint intensive for a newer player that doesn't even have core skills done yet.

I propose a removal of the majority of core skills to level the playing field. Any core skill that is removed is then re-added upon subscription, trial accounts would get somekind of lower level of core skills. One of the biggest problems with this game attracting and retaining new players is due to the overhead of skills that need to be trained. Unless this problem is addressed eve is likely going to slowly die. Any core skill that is removed is not reimbursed / refunded either, I'm talking about the removal of at least 20mil Skillpoints.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#209 - 2015-07-10 06:55:27 UTC
At some point it should be noted that Sovereigny as a game system is faulty.

When you create a "race to the top" system, the natural outcome is someone on top too big to fall, followed by not-so-top forces too dangerous and bothersome to defeat, and a variable amount of fools who will never be top and can lose everything as soon as some of the top dogs focuses on them.

Of course, that mimics RL. We know that (enter rogue state) can not do anything meaningful to the USA and we know Russia and China are too big and dangeorus to mess with even if you're the USA.

What nobody said is that RL balance of power is *fun* or at all worthy to experience in a game...

"Welcome to EVE Online, the 12 years old MMO. These guys are the USA, there's Russia and there's China. The ultimate goal of the game is to topple any of them without being nuked to the ground as soon as your gang shows any potential to topple any of them. Alternatively you may enjoy staying irrelevant or aligning with any of the top dogs. Have fun"

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Napo BonaParte
Perkone
Caldari State
#210 - 2015-07-10 07:37:09 UTC
CCP Phantom for president!

thnx damn it more incursion more combat yea this is the way...

i cant wait new jews moment :D
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#211 - 2015-07-10 09:48:01 UTC
Omg. Almost all proposal are so wrong I don't even know where to start.

Survey Networks and Entrapment Array

WTH? Explo sites spawn generator? Do you even know what exploration means? Those sites will be from the regional pool or added to regional pool? Because both ways are wrong. Added will flood the market, sucked from region will make them easy, riskless money for nullbears.
Quote:
We will be keeping a close eye on the results of these changes to ensure that we don’t flood the market with the drops from these sites, and we’ll step in and make more changes if needed.

Bite me. You have no idea how to fix data sites loot and now you introduce devices to increase the spawn rate? Every time you mess with explo loot, sites become worthless for 3 to 5 months. Now you'll be keeping close eye...? Riiiight.

Pirate Detection Array Changes

What a wonderfull conflict driver... Alliance with huge amount of memebers don't need to conquer anymore, they just upgrade their own systems? What is the reason to go to war?

ESS
Entosis Link? For real? Conflict driver?

Whoever you discuss those with think again. Ppl must have reasons to shoot each other, not hide in bubbled, fortified constellations, full of possibilities to make money.


"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Black Pedro
Mine.
#212 - 2015-07-10 10:59:34 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Whoever you discuss those with think again. Ppl must have reasons to shoot each other, not hide in bubbled, fortified constellations, full of possibilities to make money.

Like hisec?

Better null income is better to get players into null and reward them for having to defend their stuff 4 hours a day. I can't claim to know whether this is the perfect balance of risk vs. reward, but certainly something needed to be done to get players actually to bother to take, upgrade and defend Sov rather than just ninja sites (like you seem to do) or stay in high/low sec and run incursions/FW missions all-day (which will still be a problem).
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#213 - 2015-07-10 11:12:30 UTC
I still find it funny that you classify the "Quantum Flux Generator upgrades" as Upgrades rather than Penalties, Frankly I would never install this "upgrade" in any system that I actually intended to use for any form of PvE/Industry, Heck I would like to see an upgrade that does the reverse of this.
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2015-07-10 11:18:08 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
At some point it should be noted that Sovereigny as a game system is faulty.

When you create a "race to the top" system, the natural outcome is someone on top too big to fall, followed by not-so-top forces too dangerous and bothersome to defeat, and a variable amount of fools who will never be top and can lose everything as soon as some of the top dogs focuses on them.

Of course, that mimics RL. We know that (enter rogue state) can not do anything meaningful to the USA and we know Russia and China are too big and dangeorus to mess with even if you're the USA.

What nobody said is that RL balance of power is *fun* or at all worthy to experience in a game...

In the past there were alliances / coalitions that were at "the top" who fell. Sometimes it happened because the guy at the top got lazy and weak, but at least once it was because a group of plucky heroes put in literally years of war and labor. It doesn't happen all the time. If you want to dethrone the king, you should need to put in at least as much effort at taking the throne as the king does at holding on to it. Not everyone can win.

The flip side is that when the balance of power does shift, it's an epic story that no other game can match. Most of the people now playing were probably attracted because they heard or read about one of those events and it caught their imagination.


The game does currently have a problem where the balance is tilted towards incumbents, but it's not in the Sov system (and fozziesov will be extremely level). The issue is in PVP balance and the way that the loser of a battle is generally crushed. There aren't moral victories these days where you can say that you lost but bloodied the other guy's nose. So the upstarts don't stick around through the hard times; they just get discouraged and leave.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#215 - 2015-07-10 11:46:27 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Like hisec?

Better null income is better to get players into null and reward them for having to defend their stuff 4 hours a day. I can't claim to know whether this is the perfect balance of risk vs. reward, but certainly something needed to be done to get players actually to bother to take, upgrade and defend Sov rather than just ninja sites (like you seem to do) or stay in high/low sec and run incursions/FW missions all-day (which will still be a problem).

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile
becuase you OWN pirates datas or old relics in your space? Owning the space means you owe pirates in it? What a twisted concept. Do you pay them for a chance to shoot them? Big smile
Ninja? Do you have problem with that? Come and get me. I'm chased by nullsec dwellers that actively hunt me. I have zero interest to be number in fleet etc. It's my gamestyle, like it supposed to be in the sandbox, what I see here is less playstyle opportunities than creating new ones.

This will be exactly like hisec but with far better income (because null income is sooo looow curenlty, right?). Do we need that? Where is risk vs reward here?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Black Pedro
Mine.
#216 - 2015-07-10 12:09:14 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
becuase you OWN pirates datas or old relics in your space? Owning the space means you owe pirates in it? What a twisted concept. Do you pay them for a chance to shoot them? Big smile
Ninja? Do you have problem with that? Come and get me. I'm chased by nullsec dwellers that actively hunt me. I have zero interest to be number in fleet etc. It's my gamestyle, like it supposed to be in the sandbox, what I see here is less playstyle opportunities than creating new ones.

This will be exactly like hisec but with far better income (because null income is sooo looow curenlty, right?). Do we need that? Where is risk vs reward here?
Like anything in Eve, those sites belong to a Sov-holding alliance if they can defend them. Unlike highsec, where CONCORD provides free protection, the only claim a nullsec dweller has to anything comes out of the end of blaster. They are completely responsible for their own protection and enforcing any claims to space that they make. As you say, there is no mechanism locking these sites to an alliance, nor any protection from someone coming to take them.

I am not sure what you are complaining about. If you are so confident in your abilities to outwit those dim-witted nullsec dwellers, you should have no problem grabbing those sites from under their noses.

Individual nullsec income has been significantly lower than what an individual can earn in wormholes, faction warfare or highsec incursions for a long time now. I agree you do not want unassailable ISK/resource fountains pumping non-stop into the economy, but it seems to me that FozzieSov has been designed to make space very easy to attack and therefore require constant effort defend. Let's wait and see how these changes shake out before the whining about how "safe" nullsec is begins again.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#217 - 2015-07-10 12:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Pirate Detection Array Changes

What a wonderfull conflict driver... Alliance with huge amount of memebers don't need to conquer anymore, they just upgrade their own systems? What is the reason to go to war?


The above quote is the same as the faulty thinking of the past.:
Quote:
Expected consequences

Some alliances will immediately start wanting to look for better space
In the longer run, there'll be more conflicts going on, with more localized goals
Newer alliances will have an easier time getting a foothold in nullsec
Coalitions will be marginally less stable
Alliances will have to choose more carefully what space they develop, where their staging systems are, and so on (low truesec systems generally tend to be in strategically inconvenient places)


NONE of that happened, because NO ONE fights for anomaly and mining space. When CCP nerfed anomalies and the upgrade system, we didn't fight for more space, we fought to see who was the fastest at making high sec incursion and Faction Warfare Stealth Bomber alts lol. Sov space became renter space because generally only renters (and scrub frontline alliance members to dumb to to get high sec incursion and FW alts) valued the space then.

CCP is partially fixing this by upping the amount of people who can actually live in a system. They aren't directly boosting null resident income (sure, you can use more alts to farm, but that means you have higher overhead in the form or more plex or subscription fees to pay), just making it space more livable by more people. More people in null means more chances for conflict because raiders WILL come into your space and WILL tackle ratting carriers and WILL form defense fleets to save said carriers etc etc, wormholes or not.

It amazes me after years of seeing the effects of bad thinking (like this example of thinking that keeping sov space nerfed in "Greyscale 2011" will drive conflict) people still cling to it. How many more years of proof do we need to see that something doesn't work?
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#218 - 2015-07-10 12:46:11 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Like anything in Eve, those sites belong to a Sov-holding alliance if they can defend them.

Philip II of Macedon once sent a message to Sparta saying, "If I invade Laconia you will be destroyed, never to rise again," to which the Spartans sent back one word: "If." Most of them don't defend them, and I have completely opposite opinion who owns pirates...
Black Pedro wrote:
I am not sure what you are complaining about. If you are so confident in your abilities to outwit those dim-witted nullsec dwellers, you should have no problem grabbing those sites from under their noses.

First of all when CCP "take a look" at something, escacially loot I'm feeling insecure. Second what is the spawn mechanics here? Both above examples may lead to non good results. Third exploration should be seeking the sites not magnet them into you. This is suppose to be reward for 4 hour window? They won't have time to farm these, EvE is full of griefers, E-links will be used all the time.

Jenn aSide wrote:

NONE of that happened, because NO ONE fights for anomaly and mining space.

and they will now? It's like more anoms, sigs etc. what will this change? The urge to log for 4 hour window and see where is entosis link in use? This will become tedious very fast. I liked E-links at start (good replacement for hp grind) but knowing the community it may become not entertaining at all.

Jenn aSide wrote:
When CCP nerf anomalies and the upgrade system, we didn't fight for more space, we fought to see who was the fastest at making high sec incursion and Faction Warfare Stealth Bomber alts lol.

It's the problem of incursions and FW that pay such amount of ISK.
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP is partially fixing this by upping the amount of people who can actually live in a system.

What is the actual number of residents of all nullsec alliances? 12k goons only? Don't think so.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Black Pedro
Mine.
#219 - 2015-07-10 13:14:21 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Like anything in Eve, those sites belong to a Sov-holding alliance if they can defend them.

Philip II of Macedon once sent a message to Sparta saying, "If I invade Laconia you will be destroyed, never to rise again," to which the Spartans sent back one word: "If." Most of them don't defend them, and I have completely opposite opinion who owns pirates...

Yes, that is exactly what I said - those sites belong to the Sov holder if they can defend them. The reason they are in the game in the first place is to be something players can fight over. So go out there a generate some in-game content by stealing them instead of moaning on the forums about how unfair these changes are to you personally.

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
I am not sure what you are complaining about. If you are so confident in your abilities to outwit those dim-witted nullsec dwellers, you should have no problem grabbing those sites from under their noses.

First of all when CCP "take a look" at something, escacially loot I'm feeling insecure. Second what is the spawn mechanics here? Both above examples may lead to non good results. Third exploration should be seeking the sites not magnet them into you. This is suppose to be reward for 4 hour window? They won't have time to farm these, EvE is full of griefers, E-links will be used all the time.

Yes, this ability to increase the spawn rates of sites is a reward for spending the time to defend and upgrade a system. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Whether they are new spawns, or taken from a pre-existing pool doesn't really matter - both will result in more sites being run as the sites will be found easier and thus cause a decrease in the value of exploration loot. More of that loot will go to Sov holders however as a reward for holding and upgrading a system.

PvE is there for there to be something to fight over, not your personal ISK printing machine. Adding the ability to control where those site spawn is a boon for a group of players taking space thus encouraging them to fight for the space in the first place. Whether this will work out as designed is really anyone's guess at this point, but this is clearly why CCP is making these changes. Perhaps you should wait and see how these changes play out before painting yourself as a victim of these changes.
Ijesz ToKolok
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#220 - 2015-07-10 13:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ijesz ToKolok
I noticed that the German translation for the dev blog has been posted on the forums. Figured I would go ahead and show you another way to provide the Germans their "must-read"s :)

Translation: https://goo.gl/fqDJHH

Reddit thread about it: http://redd.it/3cs7il

The site is using a Translation Proxy, the translations were copied from the German thread.

Note to CCP: if you need me to nuke the site out of existence, give me the word (preferably on reddit - I read it more often).