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Dev blog: Summer of Sov - Transition and Deployment

First post First post
Author
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#81 - 2015-07-08 11:06:38 UTC
My argument is based on my assumption that CCP wants a viable nullsec ecology that is not entirely dependant on rental income paid to someone else. You are of course right; if it's available to everyone, by dint of being in the API, surely everyone will make equal use of it?

That's false. But before i go on, let me say I have no ill-respect toward PL or anyone else who has the werewithal, gumption and resources to pull whatever they want from the API and turn it into 3rd party apps and widgets. Good on you guys. You are extracting more from the game than merely logging in and spinning in a POS waiting for stuff to happen.

However, that doesn't mean CCP should ignore the ill effects of, if not abuse, then exploitation of the API. CCP removed kill and jump logging via the API from wormholes precisely because it did not meet their design goals for wormholes to have perfect intel in a wormhole chain for every jump, rat kill or player kill that occurred in the wormhole. This basically nerfed a lot of people's ways of finding PVP (Blood union prime example).

Now, when you look at CCp's admittedly hamfisted attempts to change sov warfare in nullsec it's all been about disaggregaion dynamics - removing the need for blobbing, capital blobbing, dreads to DPS EHP walls, reducing force projection (which allows blobbing), etc. it's been a clear philosophical design goal they are moving towards, to reduce people's abilities to aggregate, coalesce and stagnate.

Yet here we are, providing perfect intel on sov warfare, on a platter.

Really, Fozzie? You see no problems with this? You thought this through? if you thought it was bad for wormholes to connect to much in nullsec because a few entities exploited them as a shortcut around Phoebe's changes, here you are basically allowing people to recreate the API kill data of Siggy of old, on a vast scale.

I agree with FT Diomedes. This game is getting too reliant on API data. It's almost a game you don't have to play logged in. maybe server logins are down recisely because you don't need to gather intel, be logged in except for 10 minutes to gank a titan, so you play LOl or WOW or tanks and wait for a jabber ping which, truthfully, we'll see automatically generated from the API.

So, yeah, good for PL and all, but terrible for everyone else. But I bet your candy-arsed CSM is happy with this.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#82 - 2015-07-08 11:23:28 UTC
If you remove data from API, what happens

Goons, PL, NCdot still get the info, have the info 100% available

Smaller entities trying to find a nice slice of nullsec spend days trying to look around and scout finding their little slice, when the API dump would have helped them.

This API data won't be useful to only the big guys, there are already some hard at work on public tools. Just like www.null-sec.com/tycoon That is basically a mirror of the in game market


You do know this data is avail in game in the sov tab right, so it is just whether you login once, cache the data or get it from API, either way it is very very very easily accessible to those with means or it is API and accessible to all
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2015-07-08 13:09:49 UTC
I mean, if you want to remove the only leveling factor available to small groups in the API, we'll gladly allow it. Our organization has the resources to do without. Others do too. We'll mourn its passing, of course; using the API is certainly easier than doing it the hard way. However, with a ten-year history of nullsec quality of life being eroded little by little, we're nothing if not adaptable.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2015-07-08 13:29:26 UTC
Opner Dresden wrote:
Friendly sov transfers... how is that going to be handled? Buying/renting/selling space is a a thing, if the mechanics are supposed to follow the game play, why is this ignored?


It's not. Fozzie already addressed the question. It is left as an exercise to the reader to actually read the thread.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-07-08 13:58:25 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you remove data from API, what happens

Goons, PL, NCdot still get the info, have the info 100% available

Smaller entities trying to find a nice slice of nullsec spend days trying to look around and scout finding their little slice, when the API dump would have helped them.

This API data won't be useful to only the big guys, there are already some hard at work on public tools. Just like www.null-sec.com/tycoon That is basically a mirror of the in game market


You do know this data is avail in game in the sov tab right, so it is just whether you login once, cache the data or get it from API, either way it is very very very easily accessible to those with means or it is API and accessible to all


This is the truth. This doesn't help blocs, this helps the guys wanting to enter null. Now, I won't debate how many people are waiting on the sidelines to enter null or not. All evidence is there is not a great pool of people waiting for this patch to break in. However, if they have any hope of doing so they have to have as level a playing field as possible.

The main issue I see with this blog is CCP crossing the line into the sandbox by actively deleting assets with no compensation. Given our apprehension about them handling the future outpost migration well....this is not a good plan.

APIs? Fine. Roleplay it as NPC spies if it makes you feel better.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#86 - 2015-07-08 14:14:36 UTC
Aryth wrote:

The main issue I see with this blog is CCP crossing the line into the sandbox by actively deleting assets with no compensation. Given our apprehension about them handling the future outpost migration well....this is not a good plan.


The sad thing is all the people in this thread who will ignore this point, simply because it's coming from a goon.

This is not a minor thing, but everyone will focus on the false perception that the API will allow the "evil" blocs to gain an advantage.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#87 - 2015-07-08 14:37:51 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you remove data from API, what happens

Goons, PL, NCdot still get the info, have the info 100% available

Smaller entities trying to find a nice slice of nullsec spend days trying to look around and scout finding their little slice, when the API dump would have helped them.

This API data won't be useful to only the big guys, there are already some hard at work on public tools. Just like www.null-sec.com/tycoon That is basically a mirror of the in game market


You do know this data is avail in game in the sov tab right, so it is just whether you login once, cache the data or get it from API, either way it is very very very easily accessible to those with means or it is API and accessible to all


This is the truth. This doesn't help blocs, this helps the guys wanting to enter null. Now, I won't debate how many people are waiting on the sidelines to enter null or not. All evidence is there is not a great pool of people waiting for this patch to break in. However, if they have any hope of doing so they have to have as level a playing field as possible.

The main issue I see with this blog is CCP crossing the line into the sandbox by actively deleting assets with no compensation. Given our apprehension about them handling the future outpost migration well....this is not a good plan.

APIs? Fine. Roleplay it as NPC spies if it makes you feel better.



Aryth,
My station got ****** during crius due to a mistake on CCP part in their description. The description has been fixed, but it took 7 months of petitions and other crap. Basically from a level 1 upgrade that was installed in error due to a CCP mistake, they refunded me 900 mil for the cost of the egg. They also couldn't reverse it, so I could install another, nor did they even contemplate reimbursing the stuffing for the egg.

I don't hold a lot of hope for reimbursement of assets
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-07-08 14:57:20 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you remove data from API, what happens

Goons, PL, NCdot still get the info, have the info 100% available

Smaller entities trying to find a nice slice of nullsec spend days trying to look around and scout finding their little slice, when the API dump would have helped them.

This API data won't be useful to only the big guys, there are already some hard at work on public tools. Just like www.null-sec.com/tycoon That is basically a mirror of the in game market


You do know this data is avail in game in the sov tab right, so it is just whether you login once, cache the data or get it from API, either way it is very very very easily accessible to those with means or it is API and accessible to all


This is the truth. This doesn't help blocs, this helps the guys wanting to enter null. Now, I won't debate how many people are waiting on the sidelines to enter null or not. All evidence is there is not a great pool of people waiting for this patch to break in. However, if they have any hope of doing so they have to have as level a playing field as possible.

The main issue I see with this blog is CCP crossing the line into the sandbox by actively deleting assets with no compensation. Given our apprehension about them handling the future outpost migration well....this is not a good plan.

APIs? Fine. Roleplay it as NPC spies if it makes you feel better.



Aryth,
My station got ****** during crius due to a mistake on CCP part in their description. The description has been fixed, but it took 7 months of petitions and other crap. Basically from a level 1 upgrade that was installed in error due to a CCP mistake, they refunded me 900 mil for the cost of the egg. They also couldn't reverse it, so I could install another, nor did they even contemplate reimbursing the stuffing for the egg.

I don't hold a lot of hope for reimbursement of assets


I sorta do only because they said they were working on it and wanted to do it. What seems to have happened is they are not ready to do anything like that and have no code written.

That being said, the bigger issue is irrational fear. If you read Fozzie's statement they are afraid to inject ISK because of some fear of exploitation. Given the amounts involved that fear is extremely lopsided. To prevent 10's of billions of ethereal profit they delete 100s of billions in assets? This makes little sense and isn't founded in actual practical application.

There is no real opportunity here to exploit that for profit. Especially if they took a couple really simple safe guards like locking in the price at values from say 3 months ago or at some time period they feel is safe.

So to prevent a possibility, they are willing to directly delete wealth due to fear. That seems very wrong to me and a horrible precedent for the game.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#89 - 2015-07-08 15:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
Saisin wrote:
We have seen how API data for the siphons have pretty much made them useless.
CCP please reconsider your API policies in that area.


Yea Siphons are not useless, Somebody on reddit shouting about api's has caused a lot players to assume they are useless without trying for themselves.

CCP please nerf some guy on reddit.


It is ridiculously simple to check the your corp API once an hour and have a triggered google script send an email to your iphone/android/work/etc if the quantity of materials in a silo have not incremented by the correct amount.

In addition, there are bots (not advocating such a breach of the TOS/EULA, so don't do it kiddies) that would have no problem responding to such an email, logging in, blapping the siphon, and then logging out.

Its also possible to scrape killboards for siphon kills with R64 materials to find previously unknown R64 moons.

As fun as it is to poll the API, free intel is bad. I wouldn't cry if all of the game state API end-points were removed, leaving just the static data like item types to names, character names to ids, things like that.

I tried siphoning some moons last year. The ones on large nulsec alliance's towers were all gone inside of 24 hours. Only failscading and small alliances or corps without the know-how are vulnerable to siphons.

So no, they aren't useless. But they also aren't very useful either, due solely to the API reporting active game content.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Mathras Betterhalf
Sully Industrials
#90 - 2015-07-08 17:14:50 UTC
Its been raised by a couple of people but from what I have read it doesn't appeared to have been answered - apologies if it has.

Concerning SBU BPO's and their buyback - The patch notes say that packaged SBU BPOs will be able to be bought back on the market - the problem with this is no one will actually likely hold packaged ones as when you build anything with it, it immediately becomes unpackaged - So unless you hold a BPO and have never built anything with it, which is unlikely, this won't help those that hold SBU BPO's. (unless I'm missing something and you can now repackage unresarched BPOs .... and lets face it, who holds and uses a BPO without research it at least to ME 4 or 5))

Then you go on to say that those that aren't bought back, i.e. those that are researched - will be automatically transformed into TCU BPO's - The problem with this is -

1. The market will be flooded with an excess of researched TCU BPO's, making them realistically worthless
2. The sale volume of TCU's is disproportionately a lot lower than SBU's, again making these BPO's worthless

personally, I would be happy to just trade my researched SBU BPO's in for the same value as an unresearched packaged one, or for on patch day for them to go 'pop' and for 250 mill to be deposited back into my account (don't even care about the research time / cost if under the circumstances I managed to get base price back)) -

I appreciate game coding / mechanics may not enable this but is their anyway this could be looked at and the very least for a Dev say, sorry, we have tried but it isn't possible - and yes, I'm one of those, and I'm not the only one, who has a large number of SBU BPO's researched pretty much to max - as well an existing number of researched TCU BPO's which I rarely use so I definitely don't want two dozen more!
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2015-07-08 18:46:19 UTC
Mathras Betterhalf wrote:
Its been raised by a couple of people but from what I have read it doesn't appeared to have been answered - apologies if it has.

Concerning SBU BPO's and their buyback - The patch notes say that packaged SBU BPOs will be able to be bought back on the market - the problem with this is no one will actually likely hold packaged ones as when you build anything with it, it immediately becomes unpackaged - So unless you hold a BPO and have never built anything with it, which is unlikely, this won't help those that hold SBU BPO's. (unless I'm missing something and you can now repackage unresarched BPOs .... and lets face it, who holds and uses a BPO without research it at least to ME 4 or 5))

Then you go on to say that those that aren't bought back, i.e. those that are researched - will be automatically transformed into TCU BPO's - The problem with this is -

1. The market will be flooded with an excess of researched TCU BPO's, making them realistically worthless
2. The sale volume of TCU's is disproportionately a lot lower than SBU's, again making these BPO's worthless

personally, I would be happy to just trade my researched SBU BPO's in for the same value as an unresearched packaged one, or for on patch day for them to go 'pop' and for 250 mill to be deposited back into my account (don't even care about the research time / cost if under the circumstances I managed to get base price back)) -

I appreciate game coding / mechanics may not enable this but is their anyway this could be looked at and the very least for a Dev say, sorry, we have tried but it isn't possible - and yes, I'm one of those, and I'm not the only one, who has a large number of SBU BPO's researched pretty much to max - as well an existing number of researched TCU BPO's which I rarely use so I definitely don't want two dozen more!


Now imagine if they just deleted them instead!

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#92 - 2015-07-08 20:11:09 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-07-08 20:56:03 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
Saisin wrote:
We have seen how API data for the siphons have pretty much made them useless.
CCP please reconsider your API policies in that area.


Yea Siphons are not useless, Somebody on reddit shouting about api's has caused a lot players to assume they are useless without trying for themselves.

CCP please nerf some guy on reddit.


It is ridiculously simple to check the your corp API once an hour and have a triggered google script send an email to your iphone/android/work/etc if the quantity of materials in a silo have not incremented by the correct amount.

In addition, there are bots (not advocating such a breach of the TOS/EULA, so don't do it kiddies) that would have no problem responding to such an email, logging in, blapping the siphon, and then logging out.

Its also possible to scrape killboards for siphon kills with R64 materials to find previously unknown R64 moons.

As fun as it is to poll the API, free intel is bad. I wouldn't cry if all of the game state API end-points were removed, leaving just the static data like item types to names, character names to ids, things like that.

I tried siphoning some moons last year. The ones on large nulsec alliance's towers were all gone inside of 24 hours. Only failscading and small alliances or corps without the know-how are vulnerable to siphons.

So no, they aren't useless. But they also aren't very useful either, due solely to the API reporting active game content.

How dare you come in here with facts!
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2015-07-08 21:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Yroc Jannseen
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
[quote=Saisin]

Yea Siphons are not useless, Somebody on reddit shouting about api's has caused a lot players to assume they are useless without trying for themselves.

CCP please nerf some guy on reddit.


It is ridiculously simple to check the your corp API once an hour and have a triggered google script send an email to your iphone/android/work/etc if the quantity of materials in a silo have not incremented by the correct amount.

In addition, there are bots (not advocating such a breach of the TOS/EULA, so don't do it kiddies) that would have no problem responding to such an email, logging in, blapping the siphon, and then logging out.

Its also possible to scrape killboards for siphon kills with R64 materials to find previously unknown R64 moons.

As fun as it is to poll the API, free intel is bad. I wouldn't cry if all of the game state API end-points were removed, leaving just the static data like item types to names, character names to ids, things like that.

I tried siphoning some moons last year. The ones on large nulsec alliance's towers were all gone inside of 24 hours. Only failscading and small alliances or corps without the know-how are vulnerable to siphons.

So no, they aren't useless. But they also aren't very useful either, due solely to the API reporting active game content.

How dare you come in here with facts!



I don't see a lot of hard facts. I see a lot of "it's possible", including going so far as to say you shouldn't have api info, because there's a possibility people will bot and violate the EULA.

I love seeing people who have never spent a second hunting and killing siphons talk about how they are magically killed by the api.
Vanilla Mooses
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-07-08 22:16:37 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
http://captiongenerator.com/49246/CCP-Dev-Discuss-wormholes


have my babies
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
#96 - 2015-07-08 22:22:47 UTC
Vanilla Mooses wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
http://captiongenerator.com/49246/CCP-Dev-Discuss-wormholes


have my babies

Have my babies we can name them cheese mooses.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#97 - 2015-07-08 23:04:28 UTC
Querns wrote:
However, with a ten-year history of nullsec quality of life being eroded little by little, we're nothing if not adaptable.

That's great to hear.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Crestor Markham
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2015-07-09 00:24:54 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Crestor Markham wrote:
I also want to express support for the removal of campaign info from show info and especially the API.

-It devalues scouts and intel masters. That's legitimate (meta)gameplay that's being removed.

-It means you need to prepare for literally anyone in eve to show up to your fight--small entities cannot escalate, commit hard, or field something to counter their specific opponent, as they don't know who's got a wormhole exit 7 jumps away and wants to **** on their fight.

-Exposing this info globally means powerful alliances will always have a menu of targets to project force onto, presented to them via this info, without needing to commit to moving, careful planning, or time waiting. Just say "hey we've got a wormhole to region X...let's fire up the app and see what campaigns are live in that or adjoining regions in the next couple hours". Even with phoebe jump changes/aegis WH connection changes, they will always know exactly where and exactly when to attack: It undermines the attempts to nerf force projection/require some kind of commitment to get involved in a (sov) conflict.



The goal of information accessibility is generally a good one, but in this case it really impairs gameplay. In particular, it deals a serious setback to recent CCP priorities including nerfing force projection,making sov warfare viable for a wider variety of entities, and enabling more frequent meaningful fights.


Having it available helps the little guys the most, they don't have the people to have scouts and check each system etc, this way the info is there for them at all times.

It really won't affect the goons of the world as they have the IT staff to basically do it all from scratch anyway, so either way, they will have it, but without the API tools, they will be the only ones with it




2/10, at best. Can't we at least be sincere in balance threads?

Universal access to this information does not help the little guy, as the value of this info to the little guy is much less. He can't go **** on some sov fight PL decides to have; whereas PL can can go **** on any little guy's sov fights. The little guys want as few people to know and interfere (as third parties) as possible. Contrary to what you randomly assert, if this info isn't available via show info or the API, then there is nothing (within the TOS) that the goon IT guys can do. If, on the other hand, the goon intel team is good enough to send a scout to every sovnull system every day, then yeah, they have "earned" that info. Make them earn it rather than handing it to you on a platter.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#99 - 2015-07-09 00:40:25 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you remove data from API, what happens

Goons, PL, NCdot still get the info, have the info 100% available

Smaller entities trying to find a nice slice of nullsec spend days trying to look around and scout finding their little slice, when the API dump would have helped them.

This API data won't be useful to only the big guys, there are already some hard at work on public tools. Just like www.null-sec.com/tycoon That is basically a mirror of the in game market


You do know this data is avail in game in the sov tab right, so it is just whether you login once, cache the data or get it from API, either way it is very very very easily accessible to those with means or it is API and accessible to all


So, if i open up the map (by pressing F10 like a pro, not using the futtbucked betamap) and select sovereignty, it shows me the upcoming sov timers?

Oh. Wait. No it doesn't.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#100 - 2015-07-09 02:29:49 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you remove data from API, what happens

Goons, PL, NCdot still get the info, have the info 100% available

Smaller entities trying to find a nice slice of nullsec spend days trying to look around and scout finding their little slice, when the API dump would have helped them.

This API data won't be useful to only the big guys, there are already some hard at work on public tools. Just like www.null-sec.com/tycoon That is basically a mirror of the in game market


You do know this data is avail in game in the sov tab right, so it is just whether you login once, cache the data or get it from API, either way it is very very very easily accessible to those with means or it is API and accessible to all


So, if i open up the map (by pressing F10 like a pro, not using the futtbucked betamap) and select sovereignty, it shows me the upcoming sov timers?

Oh. Wait. No it doesn't.



Log onto DUALITY

Go to corp neocom, click on alliance tab, click on sov tab - bam all info there for you

If you want to see someone else's sov press F10 - type a system name in the search box, press enter, show info, then click on sov tab.

All the info is in game, which means it can be scraped super easy or it can be put on API/Crest


My point was large organizations can scrape the data they need easy enough, the small time peeps can't. If it is public for everyone the system is fair for everyone


This doesn't work on TQ yet, you have to go to duality, or you can wait about 6 days and it will be on TQ, then you can gripe and send in tickets and fill up my bucket with your tears