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Barrier to entry is time and expense of T2 stuff, not skill points
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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#141 - 2015-07-16 17:07:23 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I'm going to leave this quote from a childrens book here because it sums up the reality of the OPs post

Miss Tick, via the Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett wrote:
if you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still be beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.


OMG I love this, how have I never heard it before now? I mean i don't do tattoos , but if i did, this quote would have a place of honor on my right arse cheek.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#142 - 2015-07-16 17:19:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I'm going to leave this quote from a childrens book here because it sums up the reality of the OPs post

Miss Tick, via the Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett wrote:
if you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still be beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.


OMG I love this, how have I never heard it before now? I mean i don't do tattoos , but if i did, this quote would have a place of honor on my right arse cheek.
You should read the Tiffany Aching books, despite being kids books there's plenty of subtle stuff for adults in them, like all of his books they contain many gems like this.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2015-07-16 17:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
First of all, I'm pretty sure you're approaching this from a purely solo perspective, in which case I found your problem right off the bat.

Secondly, this is a sandbox game. Yes, older players are going to be more established than you, with more resources at their disposal. That's working as intended.

Thirdly, T1 equipment is reasonably viable in many cases, particularly ship hulls(and stealth bombers). Module tiericide is working towards that goal with many module types as well.

So, besides griping, I really don't see what you are arguing for. Do you have some suggestion, or what?

This is a fair post and thank you for that :)

To give you a better impression of where I'm coming from let me tell you how I see it. As I imagine it, Eve started out without T2, T3, pirate or faction ships and mods. People would jump in and fight with each other.

After years of "power inflation" and literal inflation, people are seeing that not many people are jumping in and fighting. So they want to give us more SP. But that original state of the game (which I admit I am only imagining; I wasn't here back then) will not be achieved just by giving out more SP. You can decrease the SP element, it would still leave the cost element intact.

Insofar as there are players who think they "deserve" their advantages because they've been playing longer, that is the problem at heart and trying to compromise with people who think like that may be a mistake.

My radical solution would be to eliminate T2 ships and mods which have advantages instead of just differences and deflate the value of ISK in the economy.


Were you just shiptoasting to try and get ridden out of town on the proverbial rails?

In what universe...other than some alternate EvE...would players who have spent years on SP and buckets of ISK on ships and fits not have a legitimate, completely reasonable, and significant advantage over someone just walking in the door?

Go back to WoW, son, and load up on welfare epics. You'll be happier.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2015-07-16 17:58:35 UTC
What? He proposes getting rid of all those ships people have, including the modules?

YEAH, THAT'S SUCH A BRIGHT IDEA AND TOTALLY WON'T CAUSE AN UPROAR OF MONUMENTAL PROPORTIONS!

LolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2015-07-16 18:03:28 UTC
Seriously though, I've ended this thread pages ago already.

Time can never be a barrier. The barrier he is talking about, is his patience. And because it's HIS patience, he automatically deflects to the next best thing he can blame instead of himself. Time itself!


Why don't threads get locked, when the topic has been proven to be not working/false/nonsense ?

That's a forum rule I'd like to see! Smile

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Cellini Benvenuto
Ephemeral Syzygy
#146 - 2015-07-16 18:25:04 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


As a new player, I would disagree: I think if you have the necessary skill points, it is easy to make ISK. A single clone soldier is worth a couple of T2 fit executioners. I found my first while running away from a FW gang, which ended up with me being all alone in a 0.2 system.

Personally, I think as long as we stick to frigate/dessie level PvP, money is almost never an issue as long as we are willing to put in 20-30% of our time in isk-making activities.
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#147 - 2015-07-16 18:36:19 UTC
Cellini Benvenuto wrote:
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


As a new player, I would disagree: I think if you have the necessary skill points, it is easy to make ISK. A single clone soldier is worth a couple of T2 fit executioners. I found my first while running away from a FW gang, which ended up with me being all alone in a 0.2 system.

Personally, I think as long as we stick to frigate/dessie level PvP, money is almost never an issue as long as we are willing to put in 20-30% of our time in isk-making activities.
That's where you differ from the OP, you're willing to put in time and effort to get somewhere, he wants CCP to magically transport him there.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#148 - 2015-07-16 22:42:46 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
Webvan wrote:
In other words, no change happened as far as being doable for a new player with exploration. Only just made them even less likely to survive in EVE's general hostile environment, unarmed. I still think it is all just a really bad fail joke.


Do you have any idea how much easier they made it to scan down sites, compared to how it used to be? I used to think I was good at scanning. Now a 1-day old player can have 8 probes out, and doesn't even need to think about the formation used, or using DSPs to get a spread of sigs in the whole system.

It's a whole new level of simplicity.

You mean probe down? It was when you had max skills like with my character I ran those sites with. Since the changes, I only probe down for combat exploration. How easy it is now with low SP I haven't tried, though I'm likely to train some onto this character for combat probes. But that is a two way street, as then it takes less SP for an explorer hunter to locate their defenseless prey. At least when it was harder, it would make it so the guy hunting the explorer had to sacrifice SP/time into training solid probing skills. In turn the explorer would be forced to train weapons and counters to combat.

But my point in the first sentence was about I having done them years ago with low SP and they were very much "doable", this has never changed. There was no barrier for new players into exploration. Making it easier fixed nothing other than to make EVE harder by making new players complacent about training good survival skills such as weapon systems and such combat skills.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Eleygen I'cey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2015-07-16 22:58:52 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Seriously though, I've ended this thread pages ago already.

Time can never be a barrier. The barrier he is talking about, is his patience. And because it's HIS patience, he automatically deflects to the next best thing he can blame instead of himself. Time itself!


Why don't threads get locked, when the topic has been proven to be not working/false/nonsense ?

That's a forum rule I'd like to see! Smile


Unfortunately you are wrong. Time in this game is the only barrier that cannot be speed up by skill or player interaction. Even if I am the best battleship pilot ever to have played eve and funded by the richest alliance how long will it take before I can fly one from 0sp? Months? Years? That is the definition of a barrier. The question isn't whether or not time is a barrier but if it should be a barrier at all. In the case of a battleship it makes a fine barrier because you don't want new players to instantly buy one of the largest ships in the game- the same goes for t2's. The problem comes when it takes months/years beyond even what it took to get in your fantastic new ship before you can get on an even footing with someone who has done nothing but exist longer.(not play because this is a restarting vet) Until you reach a certain SP threshold there is such a significant statistical advantage that even the most skilled player cannot overcome it. I am not talking about these 17 day cheese ships that rely on the opponent messing up severely-I am talking about getting to the point where they can fight on a relatively even footing in most encounters.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#150 - 2015-07-16 23:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Eleygen I'cey wrote:


Unfortunately you are wrong. Time in this game is the only barrier that cannot be speed up by skill or player interaction. Even if I am the best battleship pilot ever to have played eve and funded by the richest alliance how long will it take before I can fly one from 0sp? Months? Years? That is the definition of a barrier.


You are talking more about just general min/max stuff though, which still is not really an issue in EVE unless you punish yourself with 1v1 pvp. Just because it takes time to train into BS, that is absolutely no barrier to becoming a Combat Pilot and flying a combat ship. SP and time just gives you more options.

This was the whole point of tiericide, which imo worked well with ships and modules etc. Though seems a bit more undone now with the introduction of T3D's narrowing the options.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2015-07-17 00:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Eleygen I'cey wrote:
Unfortunately you are wrong. Time in this game is the only barrier
TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER!

TIME!
CAN NOT!
EVER!
BE A BARRIER!


THE BARRIER IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE!


HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, YOU CAN NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS!!



Time ALWAYS flows! The ONLY and ABSOLUTELY ONLY point in time when time itself becomes a barrier is when YOU know WHEN you are going to die! Okay? OKAY? TIME FLOWS! THERE IS NO BARRIER! THE END OF THE UNIVERSE IS A BARRIER! Do you get THAT??


Do I have to make it explicitly clear for you???


  • TIME CAN NOT BE A BARRIER!
  • YOU MAKE NO SENSE!
  • IT'S DUMB TO SAY THAT!
  • UNEDUCATED!


This isn't about semantics!


TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER!




GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD!




THE ONLY BARRIER HERE IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE!

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Eleygen I'cey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2015-07-17 01:37:48 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Eleygen I'cey wrote:
Unfortunately you are wrong. Time in this game is the only barrier
TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER!

TIME!
CAN NOT!
EVER!
BE A BARRIER!


THE BARRIER IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE!


HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, YOU CAN NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS!!



Time ALWAYS flows! The ONLY and ABSOLUTELY ONLY point in time when time itself becomes a barrier is when YOU know WHEN you are going to die! Okay? OKAY? TIME FLOWS! THERE IS NO BARRIER! THE END OF THE UNIVERSE IS A BARRIER! Do you get THAT??


Do I have to make it explicitly clear for you???


  • TIME CAN NOT BE A BARRIER!
  • YOU MAKE NO SENSE!
  • IT'S DUMB TO SAY THAT!
  • UNEDUCATED!


This isn't about semantics!


TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER!




GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD!




THE ONLY BARRIER HERE IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE!

"Barrier: a fence or other obstacle that prevents movement or access."
SP is only gained by time
SP restricts access to ship types, damage bonus, number of drones and more.
Therefore time is a barrier by definition.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2015-07-17 01:47:40 UTC
No, because the time goes by and you ALWAYS will reach the point you skill towards to. Unless you die before that.

Time can not ever be a barrier. I guess I need to point out that Time is not physical, btw, and as it keeps passing on more and more things happen, including your skills to finish. They always do. Always. No barrier.


You blame Time for your lack of patience and understanding that alp you want is a quick fix of the game. You don't even understand wtf you are talking about, as my signature prominently puts up for display! You can't be the worlds best battleship pilot when you can't fly one. You will find out if you are one, once you learn to use it. You want a shortcut you can not have, but you don't understand your error, because you don't know that you don't understand this game. At all!


You're beaten. And I've achieved nothing, because you're nothing more than a stubborn child unwilling to accept he's not good enough to do what tens of thousands of people succesfully did before him. No, the child prefers to whine!


You should go to bed. It's late.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2015-07-17 01:55:21 UTC
Webvan wrote:
You are talking more about just general min/max stuff though, which still is not really an issue in EVE unless you punish yourself with 1v1 pvp.
I'd say it's more than just the 1v1 though. Even group PvP it's more "you can be in the same fleet as people who are fighting" than "actually participating yourself". Not as bad as trying to find fights in a two week old Rifter, but if you don't have a solid corp you're going to get tired of the E-War frig you don't even want to fly getting alpha'd first real quick.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2015-07-17 01:56:16 UTC
ADDITIONALLY will lowering any skilltimes in favour for your skill-less kind of people result in even more of your kind of people whining for even shorter times, because everything that isn't INSTANT will NEVER be good enough for you spoiled little brats who have no idea how much they actually suck at games, especially this one!


It is known that this WILL happen!


I'll buy you some candy instead. *pats head*

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Bubba Ovaert
Doomheim
#156 - 2015-07-17 02:18:30 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
you're going to get tired of the E-War frig


Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2015-07-17 02:36:08 UTC
Sounds like the 'wisdom of high sp' is "get out while you can". Lol

Having seen how a lot of EvE operates I have no doubt most roles become boring, especially if you don't have the freedom to swtich. I know the games I stick with let me change things up when something starts to go stale:

Don't feel like playing class X? Go play class Y.
Don't feel like grinding? Go PvP.
Don't feel like doing the story mission? Pick a direction and go do whatever's over there for a while.

Maybe that's the secret to EvE? Enjoy living with less - just puttering around highsec with your half skilled frigate, seeing where the day takes you.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#158 - 2015-07-17 02:50:47 UTC
Bubba Ovaert wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
you're going to get tired of the E-War frig


Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison.

Yep well said. Hence why I have three subcap combat pilots and nothing else, nor ever will. EVE is boring, but it's the best boring game on the market that everyone should play imo. Instant gratification is over rated and far more boring.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2015-07-17 03:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Eleygen I'cey wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Eleygen I'cey wrote:
Unfortunately you are wrong. Time in this game is the only barrier
TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER!

TIME!
CAN NOT!
EVER!
BE A BARRIER!


THE BARRIER IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE!


HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, YOU CAN NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS!!



Time ALWAYS flows! The ONLY and ABSOLUTELY ONLY point in time when time itself becomes a barrier is when YOU know WHEN you are going to die! Okay? OKAY? TIME FLOWS! THERE IS NO BARRIER! THE END OF THE UNIVERSE IS A BARRIER! Do you get THAT??


Do I have to make it explicitly clear for you???


  • TIME CAN NOT BE A BARRIER!
  • YOU MAKE NO SENSE!
  • IT'S DUMB TO SAY THAT!
  • UNEDUCATED!


This isn't about semantics!


TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER!




GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD!




THE ONLY BARRIER HERE IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE!

"Barrier: a fence or other obstacle that prevents movement or access."
SP is only gained by time
SP restricts access to ship types, damage bonus, number of drones and more.
Therefore time is a barrier by definition.


It is indeed a barrier, in the same way a gate is a barrier. Once you open that gate the barrier no longer exists

Not all barriers are bad.

This is an example of a barrier that is not bad.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Eleygen I'cey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2015-07-17 03:19:24 UTC
Bubba Ovaert wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
you're going to get tired of the E-War frig


Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison.

Yes, but if that "some point" is in a decade I would hardly give that as a reason to limit ship selection for new players. Using me as an example it takes well over 60+ days before I can even see if flying a battleship is something I'd enjoy. If its not then I just wasted months of training for nothing. Maybe a compromise would be having a re-playable career mission give you a test mission for each ship class. I wouldn't mind a 60+ day wait if i knew for sure I would enjoy the result, that's just more time to accumulate isk and general experience.