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Barrier to entry is time and expense of T2 stuff, not skill points
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Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2015-07-09 06:57:39 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
You've spent $15 to play this game, why should you be equal to those who've accounted for hundreds, thousands of dollars on sub fees and plexes?
I'll admit - I very rarely see "Pay to Win" argued as not just a valid business model, but a divinie right.

Big smile
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#62 - 2015-07-09 08:53:59 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
You've spent $15 to play this game, why should you be equal to those who've accounted for hundreds, thousands of dollars on sub fees and plexes?
I'll admit - I very rarely see "Pay to Win" argued as not just a valid business model, but a divinie right.

Big smile


We could've paid before, we could pay from now until our character/wallet is where we want, or we can pay right now and have it right now.

either way, there will be pay.

Buying a character at least rewards another player for putting in the time and effort you were too busy(or uninterested) to do yourself.

Like, premium game purchases are about $60 these days.

Eve costs $15, sometimes $10. 2 Plexes = $40. That's $55 to have a new game to play and no longer having to worry about this t1-t2 cost gap.

It's about what, 1million skill points a month? That's $15 per million SP. a 12 million skill point character is around a year of training. That's $180. Spend $204 and get 11billion isk. Buy a 20 million skill point character leveled in the fashion you want for 10 billion isk.

Save $65 and get what you want now, not in 20 months.

It's not pay to win.

It's genius to win.
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2015-07-09 12:22:49 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
Making the game more accessible to new players in the form of reducing the skill investment for T2 stuff as well as reducing core skills across the board could only be a positive thing for the game as a whole.

Now, reducing the effort it takes to purchase said items isn't; because if you're too lazy or incompetent to fund it, you frankly don't deserve it.

Why do they need it easier than tens of thousands of people who had no issues? And why do people keep using "more accessible" wrongly, when it's actually "faster to get gratification" ? Lowering skillpoint investments does not make anything more acceswible. It's still as easily acceswible as it was before. Adding skills to a queue is not complicated.

Wh this is about is faster gratification, not accessibility. Accessibility is about removing barriers and TIME is not a barrier.

This politically correct hogwash needs to end. People need to call them what they are.

So why do they need it easier than the tens of thousands before them? Big smile


More accessible because at this stage in the game, where just about everyone has achieved 50m+ SP, access to links, drugs and heavy blobs, it is completely unreasonable to think that a new player stands a chance or is even remotely useful outside of blob warfare.

More accessible because the more new players who feel they stand a chance and go out and look for fights as a result, provides more content for everyone in the game.

More accessible because training core skills to even fit your ship for a year is not 'fun' when there are no players in your own bracket to compete with.

More accessible because as time passes in an MMO, the entry curve increases too. Flying your shitfit Drake was fine when a large chunk of the population was in the exact same situation, but one glance at recent population graphs will tell you all about new player retention.
NeaCaisa
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2015-07-09 20:00:58 UTC
-Facepalms-

You know OP....you have not a clue what your talking about. Skill points have little to do with anything. Let me explain, I have only been playing Eve for 4 months. But being an older gentleman I have plenty of disposable income. I used this income to Plex myself three toons with nice skills...one over 20 mil...one over 50 mil....and one over 80 mil. And do you know what the outcome of this was........I still can't fight my way out of a paper bag.........because the **** behind the toons has not learned all I need to play this game right. So what do I do....I fly T1 frigs......and try to learns as much as I can from the friggin vets.....DUH.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2015-07-09 22:29:04 UTC
I'm not reallysure what is the idea about. Having low level of SP but be able to fit and usr T2 mods respectively which makes you successfull in pvp situations?

Deffinatelly No.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#66 - 2015-07-10 01:24:49 UTC
I'm still pretty sure this thread was a trap.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-07-10 02:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Niriel Greez wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
Making the game more accessible to new players in the form of reducing the skill investment for T2 stuff as well as reducing core skills across the board could only be a positive thing for the game as a whole.

Now, reducing the effort it takes to purchase said items isn't; because if you're too lazy or incompetent to fund it, you frankly don't deserve it.

Why do they need it easier than tens of thousands of people who had no issues? And why do people keep using "more accessible" wrongly, when it's actually "faster to get gratification" ? Lowering skillpoint investments does not make anything more acceswible. It's still as easily acceswible as it was before. Adding skills to a queue is not complicated.

Wh this is about is faster gratification, not accessibility. Accessibility is about removing barriers and TIME is not a barrier.

This politically correct hogwash needs to end. People need to call them what they are.

So why do they need it easier than the tens of thousands before them? Big smile


More accessible because at this stage in the game, where just about everyone has achieved 50m+ SP, access to links, drugs and heavy blobs, it is completely unreasonable to think that a new player stands a chance or is even remotely useful outside of blob warfare.

More accessible because the more new players who feel they stand a chance and go out and look for fights as a result, provides more content for everyone in the game.

More accessible because training core skills to even fit your ship for a year is not 'fun' when there are no players in your own bracket to compete with.

More accessible because as time passes in an MMO, the entry curve increases too. Flying your shitfit Drake was fine when a large chunk of the population was in the exact same situation, but one glance at recent population graphs will tell you all about new player retention.

Hogwash.

The players now have the same situation all new players of the last several years had before them. Do you complain at older people in real life, how they have far more experience and how you can't compete? There IS no competition in the first place! There is NO catching up to do! You do not catch up in real life either, you just grow older like those before you did!

And except for the beginning, for over twelve years now, there were always those who were further than the new players and this issue never was one in the first place.

Every new player has it equal to every other new player. New players should get and play together, to form social bonds and corporations which will eventually kick out older, crumbling corporations. This has and will always work, because a smart group will always find a way. Apparently that's not what we see happening.


To address your "points":

The generational gap does not exist. "it is unreasonable" is not an explanation. "to stand a chance" implies they have none currently, which is absolutely not the case and also implies you know how "it" works, which i doubt. It does not take a year to fit anything. A day old new player can do combat already, even solo. A three day old player in a destroyer can, if he understands what he's doing, go kill a wide range of people flying t1 frigates.


The keypoint is that player skill determines the outcome of most fights far more than fitting. Always has, always will be. Links suck, but that's how it is. On-grid or off-grid.


TL;DR:

The "gap" is purely imaginary. There's always a wide range of people who share skillpoint-levels.



Why not blame who's at fault, instead of the system?


What is missing is social bonds between people, to grow together as a group. This was the case for many years, but it has changed significantly. Instead now we have huge, heartless alliances who suck up new players (of questionable quality anyway) with lots of farmers and people who only log in when there's a ping. (the instant gratification crowd, btw, who gain more and more influence)


And it's "them", for whom it is too hard, who create threads like this one.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Sykaotic
Doomheim
#68 - 2015-07-10 02:50:39 UTC
I have seen pilots with 150m sp that are not very good to put it nicely.

There is a differeance between skill, and skill points.

If you do not have the skill, then skill points is irrelavant.

If you bombard the game with rainbows and unicorns.... skill will not be as relevant anymore.

GL
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#69 - 2015-07-10 04:23:43 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.



Actually, if you train your skills in the right order, by the time you're using T2 stuff *EFFECTIVELY*, you can easily afford it.
EVE isn't an instant-gratification game. Loyal players like that about it.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Little Big Cat
Super Heroes In Training
#70 - 2015-07-10 04:42:48 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


Advice: Let you grow some balls.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2015-07-10 14:21:58 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Actually, if you train your skills in the right order, by the time you're using T2 stuff *EFFECTIVELY*, you can easily afford it.
It's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Especially if you're doing the higher end PVE content, it's the T2 mods that let you really grind that ISK. If you gave a new player the SP needed to T2 fit a Raven, they would be able to grind standing for highsec L4s in a few days and be paying for their T2 mods in what, a week?

But really there are very few situations where the wait for the T2 skills isn't an order of magnitude longer wait than the ISK/player skill for whatever task is at hand.
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
EVE isn't an instant-gratification game. Loyal players like that about it.
New players, not so much. Lol
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#72 - 2015-07-10 14:37:43 UTC
Sorry OP I don't think the game should be wrecked just to suit terrible players like yourself. It's a good game.
Jacques d'Orleans
#73 - 2015-07-10 15:27:30 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


I'm a quite new player (just 5Million SP) and i highly disagree with your oppinion!
I started with mining, now i run missions and soon i want to start PVP.
I want to fight my way thru and i want to succeed, and i'm sure i will fail sometimes, but failure makes us stronger, failures let us recognize our weaknesses and makes us improve!

EVE is not about space bling bling, it's about challenges, it is literally about how do you overcome one's weaker self.
That's why i play EVE, not because it is easy, but because it is hard! (last part borrowed from JFK)



Breakfast is the most important drink of the day.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2015-07-10 15:36:45 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


I'm a quite new player (just 5Million SP) and i highly disagree with your oppinion!
I started with mining, now i run missions and soon i want to start PVP.
I want to fight my way thru and i want to succeed, and i'm sure i will fail sometimes, but failure makes us stronger, failures let us recognize our weaknesses and makes us improve!

EVE is not about space bling bling, it's about challenges, it is literally about how do you overcome one's weaker self.
That's why i play EVE, not because it is easy, but because it is hard! (last part borrowed from JFK)



Spot on.
Overcoming ones self demands acknowledging and accepting that one isn't good enough yet, which these people are incapable of. There is no self reflection, only constant blaming of everything else.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#75 - 2015-07-10 15:54:30 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


I'm a quite new player (just 5Million SP) and i highly disagree with your oppinion!
I started with mining, now i run missions and soon i want to start PVP.
I want to fight my way thru and i want to succeed, and i'm sure i will fail sometimes, but failure makes us stronger, failures let us recognize our weaknesses and makes us improve!

EVE is not about space bling bling, it's about challenges, it is literally about how do you overcome one's weaker self.
That's why i play EVE, not because it is easy, but because it is hard! (last part borrowed from JFK)



'

+1000 only posted here because this damn board doesn't let us give 1000 like lol.

What has always been weird to me is how a subset of posters on this forum damn near celebrate (and enable) weakness. It's always refreshing to see a new player "get it" right out of the starting box.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#76 - 2015-07-10 16:22:30 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
... I'm a quite new player (just 5Million SP)
EVE is ... about challenges, ...
Quoted for emphasis.
General reminder.
I need more depth in EVE.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2015-07-10 17:07:33 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
I'm a quite new player (just 5Million SP) and i highly disagree with your oppinion!
I have a question then.

You've got 5M SP on a 10 month old character. If it wasn't the grind to T2, what made you give up on EVE for nearly 8 months?
Jacques d'Orleans
#78 - 2015-07-10 17:14:22 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

I need more depth in EVE.



Well then, let's start with depth.


I'm the galloping ghost of the Caldari coast.
You don't hear of me and my crew
But just ask any man off the coast of Hatori.
If he knows of the Hecate Maru.

I look sleek and slender alongside my Nereus tender.
With others like me at my side,
we'll tell you a story of battle and glory,
As enemy space we ride.

I've been stuck on the Sands of the Bleak Lands, felt the rockets impact shock,
Been north to a place called Haori,
and I've killed me two freighters atop Vasala VII, that ugly rock.

I've cruised close inshore and carried the war
to the Empire's Planet of Delve,
The enemy were quite a few
but I stayed, to admire the view.

Then Cruisers came sounding and lasers were pounding
My Destroyers crew took the test.
Far in that far off land there are no friends on hand,
To answer a call of distress.

I was blasted and shaken (some damage I be taken),
my hull bleeds and pipe lines do, too
I've come in from out there for machinery repair,
And a rest for me and my crew.

One turret hardpoint sprung and my warpdrive is done,
But the Caldari ships I saw burn.

I'm the galloping ghost of the Caldari coast,
You don't hear of me and my crew.
But just ask any man off the coast of Hatori,
If he knows of the Hecate Maru.


Original Poem "I'm the galloping ghost of the japanese Coast" by Constantine Guinness, Motor Machinist's Mate First Class (MOMM 1/c), United States Navy, WW2

Breakfast is the most important drink of the day.
Jacques d'Orleans
#79 - 2015-07-10 17:15:25 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
I'm a quite new player (just 5Million SP) and i highly disagree with your oppinion!
I have a question then.

You've got 5M SP on a 10 month old character. If it wasn't the grind to T2, what made you give up on EVE for nearly 8 months?


A Back surgery (had a spine dislocation) and a lengthy rehab, came back just a few days ago.

Breakfast is the most important drink of the day.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#80 - 2015-07-10 17:16:23 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
I'm a quite new player (just 5Million SP) and i highly disagree with your oppinion!
I have a question then.

You've got 5M SP on a 10 month old character. If it wasn't the grind to T2, what made you give up on EVE for nearly 8 months?


A Back surgery (had a spine dislocation) and a lengthy rehab, came back just a few days ago.


Shocked

Welcome back, and here's to a full recovery!

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!