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Aegis release - General feedback

First post First post
Author
Alexis Nightwish
#81 - 2015-07-09 21:36:08 UTC
Natya Mebelle wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Even after walking-in-station things weren't this toxic. After WIS players felt that they could shake things up; that CCP had lost its way but could be brought back to the right path.
We must not forget that it took 4 to 5 months after Incarna deployment for CCP to get back on track. CCP Hellmar's apology and most of the related fixes did not happen until 5 months later. Only because the update pace has increased tremendously does not mean response times in such a large scale are bound to happen faster as well.
On the contrary, I think the increased update schedule with less content per patch is going more the route of slow but steady fallout instead of massive dissatisfaction from multiple sides. Then again, by now the aftermaths should be a lot clearer...
Don't forget that Hilmar had the fiction department write his apology.

That's the kind of company CCP is. Despite Seagull's (naive?) enthusiasm, CCP is still in reality run by people cut from the same cloth as Fozzie, Larrikin, t20, and Hilmar.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Vila eNorvic
#82 - 2015-07-09 21:42:03 UTC
Natya Mebelle wrote:
Patch Notes wrote:
The overview and bracket icons for friendly NPCs are now teal colored

This is NOT teal. Not even CLOSE. Seriously, who can't distinguish teal from sky blue? I don't need to cite established standards here to know that nobody really would associate teal (which is a medium / dark blue-green) with this light blue.

QFT
Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2015-07-09 22:07:02 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Well one good thing - given how bad the last couple of updates have been expectations for CCP's success with Fozziesov couldn't be lower. Just about everybody I know expects it to be a clusterfcuk, so even if it's just "meh" it should look brilliant in comparison to everything else.
Here are a few thoughts and questions for you and everyone who knows more about the ins and outs of nullsec:

The new sovereignty system has been in the works for quite some time, and sounds like it is going to be a rather huge project where plenty of people are involved in.
  1. While I know that different parts of the development work on different things, could it be the best people from those departments (coding, art, etc) are working on the complete nullsec overhaul with structures (POS and other) so that many of the patches we got recently only got worked out with the less stellar people? Would this explain all the half-baked and leaky stuff we've been getting all along?
  2. How many people are holding their breath and wait for fozziesov and see how it plays out?
  3. How big will the outrage and/or the player exodus be, if this sovereignty change that had a long time coming is going to utterly fail?
  4. I've seen some good and some bad mentions about the sovereignty system so I will not going to ask what you people think of it, but instead I'd like to ask how long you expect it to take until it has been shaped to something that works as intended? I mean, I hope for the best but currently I don't have enough faith in the company to think the new Sovereignty feature will hold player driven scrutiny, even if it is not a half-finished product.
  5. How is the feedback going? I mean... you know what I mean. Is it the same as with icons and opportunities and starmap and all the other poop or does sov-feedback seeing brighter day?
  6. If summer is the time of sovereignty, what could be the big winter expansion thing that will bring the players to subscribe / play the game? Because usually, winter gets more players into Eve. Do you think it will be the final parse on sovereignty or have nothing to do at all with sovereignty?

Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Don't forget that Hilmar had the fiction department write his apology.

That's the kind of company CCP is. Despite Seagull's (naive?) enthusiasm, CCP is still in reality run by people cut from the same cloth as Fozzie, Larrikin, t20, and Hilmar.
I didn't know that (or forgot that). But I will not judge CCP Hellmar, because there are no reasons given as to why he let someone else write the article. There could be good or bad reasons, and all is speculation then, so I will not go there.

However, the other thing you said is making me a lot more worried. Larrikin? Wasn't he a rather new addition to the company or did he go by a different name before? Anyway, someone like him who wants to remove the Orbiting, Keep-distance and Approach commands and wants to force players to navigate manually, seems to be heftily out of touch with the game and the way it is played. This is a tactical simulation or something, not a dogfight game. Or, let me put it into Eve words: The action packed dogfight game will be Valkyrie. No reason to make Eve such a thing.

Who was t20 again? I think my mind drew another blank :c

Alexis Nightwish
#84 - 2015-07-09 22:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
Natya Mebelle wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Don't forget that Hilmar had the fiction department write his apology.

That's the kind of company CCP is. Despite Seagull's (naive?) enthusiasm, CCP is still in reality run by people cut from the same cloth as Fozzie, Larrikin, t20, and Hilmar.
I didn't know that (or forgot that). But I will not judge CCP Hellmar, because there are no reasons given as to why he let someone else write the article. There could be good or bad reasons, and all is speculation then, so I will not go there.

However, the other thing you said is making me a lot more worried. Larrikin? Wasn't he a rather new addition to the company or did he go by a different name before? Anyway, someone like him who wants to remove the Orbiting, Keep-distance and Approach commands and wants to force players to navigate manually, seems to be heftily out of touch with the game and the way it is played. This is a tactical simulation or something, not a dogfight game. Or, let me put it into Eve words: The action packed dogfight game will be Valkyrie. No reason to make Eve such a thing.

Who was t20 again? I think my mind drew another blank :c

To me, when the head of a company has the fiction department write his 'apology' that tells me he is dishonest to the furthest degree possible.

Larrikin is Dark Razer of Pandemic Legion. Also, Fozzie is Raivi of Pandemic Legion. And who proposed quite possibly the worst change in the history of EVE: the removal of fleet warp? Manfred Sideous of Pandemic Legion. I'm expecting the words "tin foil" to follow this post, but I don't care.

t20 was a dev from the early days of EVE who abused his power to spawn T2 BPOs for his alliance (BoB).


This is the culture and legacy of CCP.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-07-09 22:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Natya Mebelle
Well, we're agreeing to disagree then I guess c: Speculation gets nobody any further, and I don't see it as automatic dishonest act unless proven otherwise, for my own reasons.

I also won't comment on the entire fleet warp (or even jump change) thing, this is a different topic and I don't want to bring it up in a feedback topic for Aegis.
Thanks for reminding me about t20! Now I know what it was about again :D

Speaking of Aegis, here is the picture I forgot to upload before:

New Missile mid/low slot module icon is too big in the slot rows. Please make it smaller and more of a fancy radar dish than a cardboard box.
Sykaotic
Doomheim
#86 - 2015-07-10 02:40:13 UTC
Icons are imporved. Thanks
Vila eNorvic
#87 - 2015-07-10 02:47:24 UTC
Thanks for adjusting the Aliastra Incursus SKIN - looks good now.
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#88 - 2015-07-10 08:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsa Hayes
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Natya Mebelle wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Don't forget that Hilmar had the fiction department write his apology.

That's the kind of company CCP is. Despite Seagull's (naive?) enthusiasm, CCP is still in reality run by people cut from the same cloth as Fozzie, Larrikin, t20, and Hilmar.
I didn't know that (or forgot that). But I will not judge CCP Hellmar, because there are no reasons given as to why he let someone else write the article. There could be good or bad reasons, and all is speculation then, so I will not go there.

However, the other thing you said is making me a lot more worried. Larrikin? Wasn't he a rather new addition to the company or did he go by a different name before? Anyway, someone like him who wants to remove the Orbiting, Keep-distance and Approach commands and wants to force players to navigate manually, seems to be heftily out of touch with the game and the way it is played. This is a tactical simulation or something, not a dogfight game. Or, let me put it into Eve words: The action packed dogfight game will be Valkyrie. No reason to make Eve such a thing.

Who was t20 again? I think my mind drew another blank :c

To me, when the head of a company has the fiction department write his 'apology' that tells me he is dishonest to the furthest degree possible.

Larrikin is Dark Razer of Pandemic Legion. Also, Fozzie is Raivi of Pandemic Legion. And who proposed quite possibly the worst change in the history of EVE: the removal of fleet warp? Manfred Sideous of Pandemic Legion. I'm expecting the words "tin foil" to follow this post, but I don't care.

t20 was a dev from the early days of EVE who abused his power to spawn T2 BPOs for his alliance (BoB).


This is the culture and legacy of CCP.


Yes because Fozzie, Larrikin and Sideous have everything in common with the mistake t20 made, they are also totally nobodies, clueless and have never done anything significant in game am I right? /sarcasm in case of people not getting the hint

Today's culture of eve posters is at an all time low, whether it is feed back or discussion subforum, the entire forums have become a cesspit of ship toasting mouth breathers and THAT is why the devs seemingly ignore a lot of player suggestions, because most of them can´t even be taken serious.
Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2015-07-10 08:57:59 UTC
Elsa Hayes wrote:
Yes because Fozzie, Larrikin and Sideous have everything in common with the mistake t20 made, they are also totally nobodies, clueless and have never done anything significant in game am I right? /sarcasm in case of people not getting the hint

Today's culture of eve posters is at an all time low, whether it is feed back or discussion subforum, the entire forums have become a cesspit of ship toasting mouth breathers and THAT is why the devs seemingly ignore a lot of player suggestions, because most of them can´t even be taken serious.
I would like to politely ask you to stop with your generalizations, since they are wrong c: What you are saying would include me and many other very calmly writing and objective people who point out issues and problems without resorting to baseless accusations, insults, hate-trains and general aggressive ramble. None of my posts have been removed from a forum moderator. That can't be said for any poster. I have also not agreed with Alexis' opinion about the named persons or other things, especially because that is horribly offtopic and my opinions also veer in a different direction.

So I'd like to ask you, next time before you make a generalization, think again who you really want to call out. And then name them. Because you are definitely not helping either with your insults and accusations. Alright? c:
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#90 - 2015-07-10 13:13:19 UTC
Elsa Hayes wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Natya Mebelle wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Don't forget that Hilmar had the fiction department write his apology.

That's the kind of company CCP is. Despite Seagull's (naive?) enthusiasm, CCP is still in reality run by people cut from the same cloth as Fozzie, Larrikin, t20, and Hilmar.
I didn't know that (or forgot that). But I will not judge CCP Hellmar, because there are no reasons given as to why he let someone else write the article. There could be good or bad reasons, and all is speculation then, so I will not go there.

However, the other thing you said is making me a lot more worried. Larrikin? Wasn't he a rather new addition to the company or did he go by a different name before? Anyway, someone like him who wants to remove the Orbiting, Keep-distance and Approach commands and wants to force players to navigate manually, seems to be heftily out of touch with the game and the way it is played. This is a tactical simulation or something, not a dogfight game. Or, let me put it into Eve words: The action packed dogfight game will be Valkyrie. No reason to make Eve such a thing.

Who was t20 again? I think my mind drew another blank :c

To me, when the head of a company has the fiction department write his 'apology' that tells me he is dishonest to the furthest degree possible.

Larrikin is Dark Razer of Pandemic Legion. Also, Fozzie is Raivi of Pandemic Legion. And who proposed quite possibly the worst change in the history of EVE: the removal of fleet warp? Manfred Sideous of Pandemic Legion. I'm expecting the words "tin foil" to follow this post, but I don't care.

t20 was a dev from the early days of EVE who abused his power to spawn T2 BPOs for his alliance (BoB).


This is the culture and legacy of CCP.


Yes because Fozzie, Larrikin and Sideous have everything in common with the mistake t20 made, they are also totally nobodies, clueless and have never done anything significant in game am I right? /sarcasm in case of people not getting the hint

Today's culture of eve posters is at an all time low, whether it is feed back or discussion subforum, the entire forums have become a cesspit of ship toasting mouth breathers and THAT is why the devs seemingly ignore a lot of player suggestions, because most of them can´t even be taken serious.


The company creating the product is responsible for the atmosphere that surrounds the product. It the atmosphere between the players and CCP has become toxic its because CCP has lost the ability to communicate effectively with its customers. Forum posters are usually the most dedicated, invested players in a game. If there is a wedge being driven between the players and CCP, it most certainly has its roots in CCP's communication skills and its perceived responsiveness to its player base.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Vic Vorlon
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#91 - 2015-07-10 13:24:36 UTC
I like the new wreck icons - it's very easy to tell at a glance which wrecks contain loot. Disclaimer: I liked the new icons pretty much from the start anyway.
Alexis Nightwish
#92 - 2015-07-10 17:20:23 UTC
Elsa Hayes wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Natya Mebelle wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Don't forget that Hilmar had the fiction department write his apology.

That's the kind of company CCP is. Despite Seagull's (naive?) enthusiasm, CCP is still in reality run by people cut from the same cloth as Fozzie, Larrikin, t20, and Hilmar.
I didn't know that (or forgot that). But I will not judge CCP Hellmar, because there are no reasons given as to why he let someone else write the article. There could be good or bad reasons, and all is speculation then, so I will not go there.

However, the other thing you said is making me a lot more worried. Larrikin? Wasn't he a rather new addition to the company or did he go by a different name before? Anyway, someone like him who wants to remove the Orbiting, Keep-distance and Approach commands and wants to force players to navigate manually, seems to be heftily out of touch with the game and the way it is played. This is a tactical simulation or something, not a dogfight game. Or, let me put it into Eve words: The action packed dogfight game will be Valkyrie. No reason to make Eve such a thing.

Who was t20 again? I think my mind drew another blank :c

To me, when the head of a company has the fiction department write his 'apology' that tells me he is dishonest to the furthest degree possible.

Larrikin is Dark Razer of Pandemic Legion. Also, Fozzie is Raivi of Pandemic Legion. And who proposed quite possibly the worst change in the history of EVE: the removal of fleet warp? Manfred Sideous of Pandemic Legion. I'm expecting the words "tin foil" to follow this post, but I don't care.

t20 was a dev from the early days of EVE who abused his power to spawn T2 BPOs for his alliance (BoB).


This is the culture and legacy of CCP.


Yes because Fozzie, Larrikin and Sideous have everything in common with the mistake t20 made, they are also totally nobodies, clueless and have never done anything significant in game am I right? /sarcasm in case of people not getting the hint
No, directly cheating by doing something similar to t20 would force CCP's higher ups to get rid of them, but changing game mechanics to benefit them and theirs? They're already doing it.


Elsa Hayes wrote:
Today's culture of eve posters is at an all time low, whether it is feed back or discussion subforum, the entire forums have become a cesspit of ship toasting mouth breathers and THAT is why the devs seemingly ignore a lot of player suggestions, because most of them can´t even be taken serious.
Do you know why there's such hostility towards CCP? It's because they've earned it. They repeatedly ignore the valid concerns of the playerbase because in their hubris they can do no wrong. They "ask for feedback" and ignore it. Again, and again, and again, and again.

You know what they do instead? One of two things:

1) They see tons of legitimate feedback regarding stuff that's broken, and has been broken for a long time. But rather than actually addressing the problem, they make tiny, ineffectual tweaks and hide behind the release cadence to justify the change's ineffectiveness. This is the nudge.

2) They decide internally on a big change they're going to make. They know most everyone will hate it so they make it a little bit worse and put it out there. 100 pages of feedback about how it shouldn't be done and how terrible it is later, they take it back a notch to their original, and then claim they are listening to our feedback and compromising. This is the cludge.

The last time I saw them take player feedback seriously was with the freighter change back in Kronos. The proposed idea of rigs was bad, so they changed them to the much better system of low slots based on player feedback. That was just over a year ago.

The reason why I and many who post regularly have become hostile or toxic is because we are passionate about the game. The whole game, not just one aspect of it. And when the powers that be ignore us, dismiss our concerns, or outright lie to us, we are completely justified in our attitudes.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#93 - 2015-07-10 18:02:09 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
The reason why I and many who post regularly have become hostile or toxic is because we are passionate about the game. The whole game, not just one aspect of it. And when the powers that be ignore us, dismiss our concerns, or outright lie to us, we are completely justified in our attitudes.


On the other hand, anyone who's worked in a customer-facing job has run into That One, who sets out with great zeal to make the loss of their custom seem like a fair price for not having to put up with their crap.

You don't want to be That One, no matter how justified you may feel.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#94 - 2015-07-10 19:42:23 UTC
When is hisec getting some love ?

Regards, a Freelancer

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#95 - 2015-07-10 20:16:04 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
When is hisec getting some love ?

Regards, a Freelancer


Hisec is doing fine, thank you.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2015-07-11 14:06:32 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
The reason why I and many who post regularly have become hostile or toxic is because we are passionate about the game. The whole game, not just one aspect of it. And when the powers that be ignore us, dismiss our concerns, or outright lie to us, we are completely justified in our attitudes.


On the other hand, anyone who's worked in a customer-facing job has run into That One, who sets out with great zeal to make the loss of their custom seem like a fair price for not having to put up with their crap.

You don't want to be That One, no matter how justified you may feel.

Sure, one person. Right.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#97 - 2015-07-11 19:34:18 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:
When is hisec getting some love ?

Regards, a Freelancer


Hisec is doing fine, thank you.


FunnyCool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#98 - 2015-07-12 04:25:43 UTC
I'd like to say I can tell the difference between Aegis and Carnyx feedback threads, but the feedback about the icons, much like the new icons themselves, make it really hard to tell them apart from each other.

It's still a terrible change, it is still an issue, and by far the BEST change in this patch to me is the drone icons being restored to a revamped version of what they used to be. Now if only the rest of the icons could follow suit, we could have as playable of a game as we had 12 weeks ago.

It's easy to tell drones from ships now. Now if only we could have a reliable way to tell NPC ships from player ships, we could have enough information on hand to play the game. Colour, which is variably perceived by many in the population, is insufficient to differentiate player from NPC ships. Previously, shape differentiated player from NPC ships, while shade and colour differentiated NPC types from each other. The highest level distinction that is the most important, player vs NPC, was handled by shape, which is what basically needs to happen now again. Colour and shade should be used within a category of items, if at all; the previous icon set didn't even need colour at all - everything was clearly defined by shade and shape alone.

I can attempt to fathom why it is incredibly neat and tidy from a design perspective to have every ship type of a chosen class share an icon. It just doesn't make sense at all from the game play angle; NPCs and players act entirely different - they should be as visually distinct as they are in behavior.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2015-07-13 14:20:20 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
The reason why I and many who post regularly have become hostile or toxic is because we are passionate about the game. The whole game, not just one aspect of it. And when the powers that be ignore us, dismiss our concerns, or outright lie to us, we are completely justified in our attitudes.
It is difficult for me to draw the line between Elsa's bad generalization and this here what you just wrote. While this is a reason to become toxic, I don't think it qualifies as excuse and neither does it entitle anyone to be insulting, toxic and resort to bad behaviour in general.

There has to be a difference. I'm seeing a good number of people who bring their opinions reasonable and their feedback is solid. The most toxic/trolling people I see usually don't give much feedback at all other than "I hate these changes, CCP is incompetent and should rollback." This is not feedback. This is an opinion.

Being toxic, hateful, aggressive and whatnot is a choice. Everyone always has this choice, and everyone can always choose to NOT be like that too. No matter how justified that would be, but this is simply bad behaviour.
I'd much rather see CCP's communication skills take a few steps up, and maybe even go so far to invite the people who have been giving heaps of great feedback and ideas over the years a different area in the forum or something to talk about. Because it often happens once a topic gets split apart by the hateful bile that others bring, people are much more likely to fight each other instead of trying to make the problems apparent. And reading this stuff is sometimes not a nice to stomach. Maybe we need to either expand the CSM instance, or split it up into two separate groups that have more specialization going on. If there are players are that good and reasonable with their feedback and ideas, and I'm sure there are many out there, then the least that could be done is reward this. They're giving away their free time to try improving a game they already pay for. The least CCP should do about this is being more appreciative of this. Because if they are, they're not showing it.

Now of course, we're at the point where it seems that feedback is not being taken into consideration any more or way too late, response times are super slow and all that good stuff. Recently, I had an interesting evemail exchange with someone who brought up an interesting point: Valkyrie seems to get all the hype now. Is Eve being cut short from their better developers because they're moving over to Valkyrie for the time being? This could explain why things are so rotten at the moment, including the fast paced patch schedule.

I wouldn't wonder if the CSM members on their own are disgruntled as well because they're affected by the fast changes and lack of communication as well but need to keep their opinions about this widely locked up.

In any event... the state of being between players and CCP definitely has been better once. The quality of patch content has been better once, CCP's communication skills have reached a really low level which even goes down to outright insult their playerbase and lastly we're sitting here, feeling helpless because it seems nothing we do makes a difference. I'll never ask CCP for rollbacks or knee-jerk reactions. All I ask is a higher level of quality control and being more considerate of the vast variety of players. But who knows, maybe the better QA testers really are all off to Valkyrie? And even if not, there is definitely something wrong in the bushes.

I don't want a monument to be shot, I don't want strikes or threats or dismissal and ignorance or whatever. We should be better than this, players and developers alike. Right? :c
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#100 - 2015-07-13 15:02:29 UTC
Sykaotic wrote:
Icons are imporved. Thanks


However, I understood that the lines were to be thickened some for easier sight? Although those having physical problems with the game, specifically the overview causing eye pain, may have given up after Aegis.