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Crime & Punishment

 
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Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#61 - 2015-07-07 13:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
Tepijo I'm starting to like you.
Regardless of this, when the C&P mining OP does form our skiffs shall blot out the sun.
And then we shall mine in the shade.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Tepijo ntepreoccupa
La Rapida
#62 - 2015-07-07 14:03:48 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Tepijo I'm starting to like you.

That's bad Big smile

Omar Alharazaad wrote:

Regardless of this, when the C&P mining OP does form our skiffs shall blot out the sun.
And then we shall mine in the shade.


That's better Big smile
Bullet Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#63 - 2015-07-07 14:27:52 UTC
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:
Bullet Anarchy wrote:
I just don't like being low sec status for shooting them



Better forum where expose your point of view as it regards a possible modification of EVE mechanics:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270



I don't have a modification to suggest, making them go suspect on entering the plex is tippng the balance in the other direction because suspect flags affect things other than whether or not you get a sec status hit.

On Target
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#64 - 2015-07-07 16:24:31 UTC
Bullet Anarchy wrote:
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:
Bullet Anarchy wrote:
I just don't like being low sec status for shooting them



Better forum where expose your point of view as it regards a possible modification of EVE mechanics:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270



I don't have a modification to suggest, making them go suspect on entering the plex is tippng the balance in the other direction because suspect flags affect things other than whether or not you get a sec status hit.


Turn all FW systems into null sec space, then you don't need to worry about sec loss!
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#65 - 2015-07-07 16:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
A militia pilot is patrolling a FW complex in a warzone. It is his responsibility to pick his targets properly. If he purposely shoots at a civilian he has committed a crime and there are repercussions to that. Assuming the civilian is an aggressor is no excuse. You shoot first, you take a sec hit.

OR

A militia pilot is patrolling a FW complex in a warzone. The FW complex is specifically designed as a battleground. Anyone entering the complex is entering a battleground and accepts the risk of being shot down as a potential hostile. It is not the responsibility of the militia pilot to put himself at a disadvantage in order to determine the intent of a neutral pilot in a battleground.


From the perspective of game balance, is one of these correct and the other incorrect? Are there objective values you could apply here to determine which one is the better choice? Please feel free to make the argument, but I'm not seeing it. Some things are subjective. There isn't always a right and wrong. I view these as two different ways to approach the same issue. Neither more right or wrong than the other, just different.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2015-07-07 16:38:58 UTC
Bullet Anarchy wrote:
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:
Bullet Anarchy wrote:

Why would I want to fight him ?



Then run. It's easy.



It's a FW plex we are meant to stay there to keep the enemy out.

You spent all this time explaining how a pirat is NOT the enemy. Secondly if "He" is establishing perfect range before engaging, then why don't you, ya know, turn on your afterburner and go to your optimal range. Several times I've MWD's my vengeance to face hugger range when Eve U comes in to play since they cannot shoot first.
Bullet Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#67 - 2015-07-07 17:10:27 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
Bullet Anarchy wrote:
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:
Bullet Anarchy wrote:

Why would I want to fight him ?



Then run. It's easy.



It's a FW plex we are meant to stay there to keep the enemy out.

You spent all this time explaining how a pirat is NOT the enemy. Secondly if "He" is establishing perfect range before engaging, then why don't you, ya know, turn on your afterburner and go to your optimal range. Several times I've MWD's my vengeance to face hugger range when Eve U comes in to play since they cannot shoot first.



Well it doesn't work like that in practice.

It is more
Group A Militia in FW Plex sees Group B Pirates Enter System in Local
Group A Sees Group B in close proximity of the acceleration gate on Dscan
Group B also knows Group A are inside a FW Complex through using DS
Group B Enters the plex OK Coral fast draw wild west occurs.

On Target
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-07-07 19:53:15 UTC
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:
Bullet Anarchy wrote:

Yes that is how it currently works, you can enter a FW site and position your pirate ships at exactly your optimum range from me and if I shoot anyone with less than -5 sec status while they are doing that then I get a sec hit.
I stick by my original comment on the matter, this mechanic is flawed.


It is not flawed.
The FW plexes come in 3 different sizes of ships that are allowed to get in.

As the "pirate" enter and positione himself, you can do the same: keep moving in your better position.
As him start to target you, do the same.
If he open fire, you will have your fight with no loss of sec status.

If the "pirate" is not alone (do you watch on D-scan while you are in the plex right?) or he is in a ship that you judge better than yours you have the work to be situational awareness and keep your decisions about fight or run.

Many different is the situation where a militian is only "farming" the plex and pretend to / don't want interferences from outside. But it is not how FW is intended to work. Or Eve itself.

When you joining FW you should expect interferences all the time. Oh well, all the times you undock, FW or not, HS or not you have to expect the possibility to have "interferences". It is how EVE works.

Except that you can never afford to let your opponent dictate the start of the fight unless you are in a ship that they flat out should not be engaging. This is especially bad if you are in a brawl ship as they can just move to an appropriate kiting range before opening fire.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Tepijo ntepreoccupa
La Rapida
#69 - 2015-07-07 20:27:32 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:

Except that you can never afford to let your opponent dictate the start of the fight unless you are in a ship that they flat out should not be engaging. This is especially bad if you are in a brawl ship as they can just move to an appropriate kiting range before opening fire.


You are right, who dictate the range usually has a good opportunities to win the match. That's the reason I have wrote "keep moving in your better position".

Few months in null have teached me some lessons, the basic are as follow:
- check local, stretch it in a confortable position on the screen and make sure it is always visible.
- open system map and figure out the System, where are gates, where celestials.
- if any in local, check pilot and corp, his status, his kills
- if any in local, check D-scan routinely, you have to know where he is and which ship he has and where he is going. Is him a dweller? A tourist? A killer? An hauler?
- if any in local, dont do stupid things. Brain is your friend.

Why FW in lowsec should be different? Moreover in FW you have the intel channel too, that show spikes, gate camps, roaming pirates and so on. And after some days in FW you usually know who is around.

If he acquire his better range is your fault, he can only enter on the beacon through the acceleration gate, you know where is the beacon and you should know if he is coming and you surely know where a "guest" will land.

Sure this mean that you have to stop the timer if you are willing to fight, but it is more relevant the timer or the right range for your chanches?
To "brawl range" him or to "kiting range" him is not necessary that the first shot has been fired. The fight start well before that. Usually it start when he pop up in local.
Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#70 - 2015-07-07 21:48:02 UTC
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:


Why FW in lowsec should be different? Moreover in FW you have the intel channel too, that show spikes, gate camps, roaming pirates and so on. And after some days in FW you usually know who is around.

If he acquire his better range is your fault, he can only enter on the beacon through the acceleration gate, you know where is the beacon and you should know if he is coming and you surely know where a "guest" will land.

.


It is different because you don't get a sec status hit in null sec ?
No way in a month of Sundays is an unidentified potential threat going to land on grid in a FW plex and the ships inside are going to just move around without shooting it.


V & B Corporation
Bullet Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#71 - 2015-07-07 22:00:35 UTC
It's like saying a man with a load of explosives strapped to him can run into an army camp but if they shoot him before he explodes they get done for murder.

On Target
Tepijo ntepreoccupa
La Rapida
#72 - 2015-07-07 22:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tepijo ntepreoccupa
Venom Anarchy wrote:
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:


Why FW in lowsec should be different? Moreover in FW you have the intel channel too, that show spikes, gate camps, roaming pirates and so on. And after some days in FW you usually know who is around.

If he acquire his better range is your fault, he can only enter on the beacon through the acceleration gate, you know where is the beacon and you should know if he is coming and you surely know where a "guest" will land.

.


It is different because you don't get a sec status hit in null sec ?
No way in a month of Sundays is an unidentified potential threat going to land on grid in a FW plex and the ships inside are going to just move around without shooting it.




@bullet anarchy too:

EVE is a "decision game".
Within the mechanics you can choose:
- to leave the plex
- to wait at your range that he shot first
- to shoot first and lose sec status

If you don't like the mechanics you can talk with CCP and explain them better.
I can agree with you, or disagree with you, but who care? The mechanics rule the game.

I think that even my neighbour on the other side of the street has understood that you don't like the mechanics.
(and he has told me in private that he don't care too. But he is a fuk*ng insensible bastard, he is not like this little noob sweety girl that keep explaining you).

In any game there are rules and there are workarounds. The workaround in this case is keep the better conditions to win the fight and let him shoot first. If he leave you "win" anyway.

If you don't like the rules, you have another option too: don't play the game.
But frankly, and I am telling you not in sarcastic mode, but in honest and friendly mode, you simply start to boring repeating that you dont like the way the game is made.

I've told you, send your requests to CCP, it is a software hose famous to hear his clients. Who knows?

After some reading it look like: "I don't like the game. But I want to play. But I don't like it. But I keep playing. But I don't like it."
In my real world, my son could ask you: "sorry mate are you a masochist to play a game that you don't like?"
Bullet Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#73 - 2015-07-07 22:55:42 UTC
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:


In any game there are rules and there are workarounds. The workaround in this case is keep the better conditions to win the fight and let him shoot first. If he leave you "win" anyway.



I don't mind shooting them and losing sec status but I think it is too compulsory to lose sec status to complete the FW objectives.

This game funnels career paths too much. Everyone becomes a pirate arms dealer eventually.

On Target
Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#74 - 2015-07-07 23:02:54 UTC
Bullet Anarchy wrote:


This game funnels career paths too much. Everyone becomes a pirate arms dealer eventually.


I doubt her neighbour cares about that either

V & B Corporation
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-07-08 16:03:17 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
Bullet Anarchy wrote:
Tepijo ntepreoccupa wrote:
Bullet Anarchy wrote:

Why would I want to fight him ?



Then run. It's easy.



It's a FW plex we are meant to stay there to keep the enemy out.

You spent all this time explaining how a pirat is NOT the enemy. Secondly if "He" is establishing perfect range before engaging, then why don't you, ya know, turn on your afterburner and go to your optimal range. Several times I've MWD's my vengeance to face hugger range when Eve U comes in to play since they cannot shoot first.


The only way to establish optimal range control in a brawl/scram kite fit is to web/scram the target as soon as he drops warp invuln.

The issue of sec status loss for shooting neutrals inside plexes is a separate and larger issue. I just wanted to point out that in many situations one has to aggress immediately to have a chance at victory.
Bullet Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#76 - 2015-07-08 18:53:41 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


The issue of sec status loss for shooting neutrals inside plexes is a separate and larger issue. I just wanted to point out that in many situations one has to aggress immediately to have a chance at victory.



Exactly , the reality is everyone ignores the sec penalty and shoots anyway but quite a few will not shoot pods if they are going to get the sec status hit for it because the penalty is much higher and at the end of the day a pod is limited threat.

On Target
Bullet Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#77 - 2015-07-10 16:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Anarchy
Simple fact is , I didn't join factional warfare to do criminal activities. I don't like having to do them to be in factional warfare.

I don't mind taking sec hits for killing people outside of FW Plexes and obviously areas with no gate such as the Large complex or the infrastructure hub could be considered differently anyway so there are a number of options.

On Target
StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#78 - 2015-07-13 23:22:43 UTC
Bullet Anarchy wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


The issue of sec status loss for shooting neutrals inside plexes is a separate and larger issue. I just wanted to point out that in many situations one has to aggress immediately to have a chance at victory.



Exactly , the reality is everyone ignores the sec penalty and shoots anyway but quite a few will not shoot pods if they are going to get the sec status hit for it because the penalty is much higher and at the end of the day a pod is limited threat.



Pods are the worst threat. In wormholes they warp off to forcefields to reship. In HiSec they gila your cynabal and wardec mostly afk corps for months due to shouldve had won'ed. In lowsec and nullsec titans need pods to move around and fire doomsdays and bridge people. Pods are the number one threat. Never not shoot the pod. Ever.

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#79 - 2015-07-15 18:18:20 UTC
OP, just use an alt in dealing hisec activities just like the rest of us.

imho, the bigger issue with this is that, militia pilots (that acquired negative status while fighting neuts inside plexes) can feel the disadvantage when fighting on gates and stations against neutrals.

anyhow, the fix to this is coming, Groski mentioned it in slack tweetfleet and reddit.

Just Add Water