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Covert Fleets to Move Items Starting at 1Billion .

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Author
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#21 - 2015-07-08 20:58:34 UTC
Pontryvel Crendraven wrote:

SOrry for the Quote of your post but
1. I do not offer JF service because I don't have one.
2. I give you my word that if I am asked to move items for my enemies into a trap that they have the right to do business elsewhere.
3. I have never taken an item after accepting a contract, let alone review a contract, besides your open ended clauses above.
4. I have never fallen asleep and I can also video record my trip for security audit review.
5. Why should I be liable for other's traps? Nice try but no. I can ask Black Frog how they get their collat back..?
6. I heard of PushX too but I forgot their offer and again, I do not offer JF for the reason mentionned above.
7. If it's worth it to get a JF then I'd do it, until then, it's just not worth it for me yet.
8. I offered Black Ops, Covert Jump services, and that can include 2 trips or more if the conditions warrants it.
(Simple Arithmetic : 415m x 3 = 1.235b ISK + 740m x 2 = 1.480 b ISK.)
9. I do not offer benefit over freight services since I offer delivery in war zone with Covert Cyno (yes, I Pontryvel won't fly this mission, I'm just a forum / com officer).
10. The reason the clause in case of war, doesn't apply in the same way is because Blockade Runners are equipped to run in war fronts.


If you are confidant in your business model and in game ability, why not offer collateral to prove someone can trust you? You won't get any customers whatsoever if you don't build a reputation, and you will never build a reputation for a service like this without offering some sort of guarantee that people like me won't lose everything by trusting you.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#22 - 2015-07-09 07:07:37 UTC
Reading this thread is like witnessing an acid trip.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Pontryvel Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-07-09 16:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Pontryvel Crendraven
Lan Wang wrote:
what exactly is the advantage of using a covert ship over a jump freighter? i dont get what this whole covert business is all about.

this isnt trolling this is simply questioning your business model and why we should risk you over other services, if you consider legitimate questions trolling then i wouldnt expect very much business

Cidanel Afuran wrote:
If you are confidant in your business model and in game ability, why not offer collateral to prove someone can trust you? You won't get any customers whatsoever if you don't build a reputation, and you will never build a reputation for a service like this without offering some sort of guarantee that people like me won't lose everything by trusting you.

I'm preparing replies but since it got so complicated , it'll require more time from me to be able to simplify it.

I'll add this for now:
The insurance is a channel or a medium meant to convey a sense of trust or confidence as collateral do.
Please be aware that collateral themselves offer less freedom in the prevention of damage.
It is too easy for covert business to use collateral to attack cargo.
In fact, the insurance scheme is meant to prevent backstabbing from clients.

It doesn't mean that I will trust risking 10b or 20b because I have concluded 10b or 20b business with a potential client.
I will most likely not, since it would be too easy to steal and try to steal my work, income (and assets).

Also, the reputation part is more related to the insurance, as the client's reputation is expected to change the outcome as well.


As for Covert Advantage over Jump Freighter, this thread is not meant to go over that.
I can start another thread to discuss differences between the 2 services but I do not see competition between the 2 since they are different service.
Of course there are related competition in the sense of cargo freight delivery but my offer is also not related to this.

This competition is in fact more attuned to what a Jump Freighter service would be a part of , systematically speaking.


3.
The general differences lie in that covert transports and movement are harder to detect by D-scan.
It offers more freedom for movement , undetected movement, and it is still traceable, and can be tracked.

I could go into more detail but I will leave that for another thread since it may shed too much light on security vulnerability.
Enemies can exploit those and try to counter-attack the gained safety of the systematic transport method.

Edit:
The trade-off to gain Covert Jump ability for BR (Blockade Runners) as compared to JF is more than 10 times less cargo space.
It is not a small rate (neither is it any rate, neither is it at any rate).
I believe JF can haul over 275,000 m^3 compared to around 8,000 to 9,000 m^3 for a BR which is 35 times more.
In other words, it would take 35 jumps for a BR or 35 BR to haul the same quantity.
If any of the items are larger than 8,000 or the maximum BR capacity, this feat will not even be possible.

All of the Covert Jump items have to be smaller in size then 8,000 to 9,000 m^3 or the Maximum BR capacity.


4.
The offer is meant to be contracted and accomplished.

No collateral are offered since I do not seek to build customer relation based on collateral.

If they do not want to use my service, I am not willing to offer to risk my assets to provide them.

I already incurred enough risk as it is to get the covert fleet that I do not see or have any benefit in that.


The insurance will offer me the leeway necessary to make this possible without locking me in a predicament.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#24 - 2015-07-10 06:47:12 UTC
Well then nobody is going to use your service, it;'s that simple. Nobody is going to trust you with their stuff with no collateral, paying a higher amount for a delivery just because you choose to use a cheap ship to do it. Your competitors move more for cheaper and guarantee it's delivery. Your service has no conceivable benefits, it's really that simple.

Good luck!

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Pontryvel Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-07-10 18:37:05 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Well then nobody is going to use your service, it;'s that simple. Nobody is going to trust you with their stuff with no collateral, paying a higher amount for a delivery just because you choose to use a cheap ship to do it. Your competitors move more for cheaper and guarantee it's delivery. Your service has no conceivable benefits, it's really that simple.

Good luck!

No time to reply until after 6 AM tomorrow.

But I will add this:
I simply didn't published the offer to compete against or for other services including JF or Blockade Runner Covert Jump ability.
I invited the competition to post in this thread and it sure seems they did although replies seemed more like, clients will prefer the competition, rather than state, we are competitors and so on...
(I forgot how I presented the invitation at this time and will try to verify tomorrow, on schedule.)

As for the items being moved without collateral and trust, I have seen this done in specific condition and it is perfectly sane and viable.
Of course there are factors related to security, and I believe my cargo insurance offer will cover that even though it won't be necessary since I may offer other forms of security.
💹
solarius lunarian
Nebula Tactics
#26 - 2015-07-10 18:40:14 UTC
Speaking as someone who does both jump freight and blockade running in NPC nullsec and

You don't really have a business model, you are asking your client to take on an unreasonable amount of risk for the service you provide. You are looking at this deal completely from your own perspective and not the people who would use your service

Part of the skill of being a trader or courier is to be able to easily identify likely scams or bait contracts and not take them, if you do accept it, then find a way to complete it while still avoiding the ganks, don't accept contracts with false collateral. Your insurance scheme doesn't make sense, why would a client accept less than full collateral??

You are misunderstanding your role as a courier, you are being payed to take the risk of hauling the goods from the client from point A to point B, if you don't offer collateral there is no reason for a client to pay you this fee because you haven't taken on any risk at all.

the problem with this equation is that you don't ever take any real risks, you want your clients to insure their own goods WHEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE PAYING YOU FOR.

if you don't trust your own ability to avoid ganks, recognize scams/setups and safely get good where they need to go WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOUR CLIENTS TRUST YOU
Pontryvel Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-07-10 18:49:42 UTC
solarius lunarian wrote:
Speaking as someone who does both jump freight and blockade running in NPC nullsec and

You don't really have a business model, you are asking your client to take on an unreasonable amount of risk for the service you provide. You are looking at this deal completely from your own perspective and not the people who would use your service

Part of the skill of being a trader or courier is to be able to easily identify likely scams or bait contracts and not take them, if you do accept it, then find a way to complete it while still avoiding the ganks, don't accept contracts with false collateral. Your insurance scheme doesn't make sense, why would a client accept less than full collateral??

You are misunderstanding your role as a courier, you are being payed to take the risk of hauling the goods from the client from point A to point B, if you don't offer collateral there is no reason for a client to pay you this fee because you haven't taken on any risk at all.

the problem with this equation is that you don't ever take any real risks, you want your clients to insure their own goods WHEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE PAYING YOU FOR.

if you don't trust your own ability to avoid ganks, recognize scams/setups and safely get good where they need to go WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOUR CLIENTS TRUST YOU

again , you reply when I have to go to work and cause delays + get me late
no time until after 6 am for this
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#28 - 2015-07-10 19:11:06 UTC
Pontryvel Crendraven wrote:
solarius lunarian wrote:
Speaking as someone who does both jump freight and blockade running in NPC nullsec and

You don't really have a business model, you are asking your client to take on an unreasonable amount of risk for the service you provide. You are looking at this deal completely from your own perspective and not the people who would use your service

Part of the skill of being a trader or courier is to be able to easily identify likely scams or bait contracts and not take them, if you do accept it, then find a way to complete it while still avoiding the ganks, don't accept contracts with false collateral. Your insurance scheme doesn't make sense, why would a client accept less than full collateral??

You are misunderstanding your role as a courier, you are being payed to take the risk of hauling the goods from the client from point A to point B, if you don't offer collateral there is no reason for a client to pay you this fee because you haven't taken on any risk at all.

the problem with this equation is that you don't ever take any real risks, you want your clients to insure their own goods WHEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE PAYING YOU FOR.

if you don't trust your own ability to avoid ganks, recognize scams/setups and safely get good where they need to go WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOUR CLIENTS TRUST YOU

again , you reply when I have to go to work and cause delays + get me late
no time until after 6 am for this


It's pretty funny that you want your clients to take all the risk while paying you several times the going rate and you expect people to wait until you're ready before they post a reply then blame them for your inability to walk away.
General Ivanvitch
Doomheim
#29 - 2015-07-10 19:16:17 UTC
You are aware there are different time zones of people that are allowed to post ..... Plus these wonderful inventions called cellphones that let you post from work?
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#30 - 2015-07-10 19:22:06 UTC
Pontryvel Crendraven wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Well then nobody is going to use your service, it;'s that simple. Nobody is going to trust you with their stuff with no collateral, paying a higher amount for a delivery just because you choose to use a cheap ship to do it. Your competitors move more for cheaper and guarantee it's delivery. Your service has no conceivable benefits, it's really that simple.

Good luck!

No time to reply until after 6 AM tomorrow.

But I will add this:
I simply didn't published the offer to compete against or for other services including JF or Blockade Runner Covert Jump ability.
I invited the competition to post in this thread and it sure seems they did although replies seemed more like, clients will prefer the competition, rather than state, we are competitors and so on...
(I forgot how I presented the invitation at this time and will try to verify tomorrow, on schedule.)

As for the items being moved without collateral and trust, I have seen this done in specific condition and it is perfectly sane and viable.
Of course there are factors related to security, and I believe my cargo insurance offer will cover that even though it won't be necessary since I may offer other forms of security.
💹


the only way this is acceptable is within alliance logistics programs (if thats a thing) if i wanted something expensive moved i would use redfrog etc because they offer collateral and a guarantee that if i lose it then i get something back, i wouldnt use a service to move something expensive at a crazy price with no collateral. ps i have no alts so i rely on logistics services i trust or offer collateral.

sorry i dont see any benefit to your service, unless you offer collateral you will get very little business when the competition is so tight. the competition wont post because...why do they need to?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Pontryvel Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-07-11 09:26:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Pontryvel Crendraven
Lan Wang wrote:
Pontryvel Crendraven wrote:
...
the only way this is acceptable is within alliance logistics programs (if thats a thing) ...

100% + right you are.
Well, now, that's also possible.


Also, bear in mind the nature of collateral and that my offer in no way negates collateral assets as a requirement to contract.
Just that I don't directly require collateral payment as the security medium itself or in itself.


+1. I forgot my shirt for work was late again.
2. I will check to register copyright for this since I can already sense more than 7.5 light years away + 10% at level V the thread will be locked or social discord will compel the admin to pit a Lock Out tag on the thing.
3. It would make me sick to spend over 20 hours in the weekend to work on the stupid thing.
4. I find it easier to invest $3,000 more on in investment .
Ragnar Izanagi
#32 - 2015-07-11 10:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ragnar Izanagi
Pontryvel Crendraven wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
...


the only way this is acceptable is within alliance logistics programs (if thats a thing) ...


He's not a troll, and he's probably not as stupid as he sounds, but english is clearly not his first language, he doesn't understand the concept of a courier, and he doesn't know what the word "Collateral" means...

Pontryvel:

A courier accepts goods under a contract. In order to sell your services you have to offer the following.

1. A reasonable fee that the CLIENT has to pay YOU.
2. A large amount of ISK, called COLLATERAL that YOU must pay to accept the contract.

YOU PAY COLLATERAL, THE CLIENT PAYS THE FEE. YOU DO NOT PAY THE COLLATERAL TO THE CLIENT, YOU PUT IN IN AN ACCOUNT, THE CLIENT CANNOT TOUCH IT UNLESS YOU FAIL TO DELIVER ON THE CONTRACT. IF YOU DELIVER ON THE CONTRACT, YOU GET THE COLLATERAL BACK ALONG WITH YOUR FEE. IT IS YOUR GUARANTEE TO THE CLIENT THAT YOU WILL DELIVER THE GOODS.

There are services out there, most of which have been named for you alreay, that offer the same service you claim to for a LOWER fee, and offer MORE collateral. They have a much better reputation than you do, and they know what a courier does. Only idiots will pay for what you're offering. if you can't afford to do courier contracts the right way, you're not ready to do them.
Pontryvel Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-07-11 11:13:15 UTC
Ragnar Izanagi wrote:
...he's probably not as stupid as he sounds, but english is clearly not his first language, he doesn't understand the concept of a courier, and he doesn't know what the word "Collateral" means...

Probably not as stupid as you are doomed to make me sound, I agree.
2. First language is a ridiculous concept, explain what you mean in more relevant details.
3. My understanding and practical use of language obviously isn't something designed for you to understand since you prefer misrepresenting me to bask in your ill gained riches.
4. I don't know what collateral means according to you even if I had paid and lost over 10b ISK or 100b ISK in it for the matter.
Only stupid fools would be so ignorant to fall into traps of intention to control their courier while clients try to set them up with collateral and other obligation such as waste of time, inciting others to boycott, and fleets designed to spy and clutter forums thread, plus insults investor by calling them fools and stupid to spit on the outmost good faith nature of their insurance investment compared to the good faith reasons you may give.
Also trying to misrepresent me and try to pass as helping me while obviously scheming to attack me and try to justify loss of colateral with no insurance in case of gank is a blatant fraud you mister.
I don't care if I have to hire an English major from New York University.
That would be even more stupid. (And guess what, I sure the hell did.)
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#34 - 2015-07-11 12:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
How about you do zero collateral, zero reward until delivered biz model? See how it goes. Blink

/prepares a stack of Tritaniums to flood the channels

Giving you even 1 Tritanium to haul would be GENEROUS. No. Thank you.
Ragnar Izanagi
#35 - 2015-07-11 12:37:17 UTC
Quote:
Probably not as stupid as you are doomed to make me sound, I agree.

Believe it or not, dude, I'm the only one in this thread NOT insulting you. Shut up and listen.

Quote:
2. First language is a ridiculous concept, explain what you mean in more relevant details.

What I mean by "not your first language" is exactly what I say... You were born, you learned a language OTHER THAN ENGLISH, you grew up a bit, and you LATER learned english...

In other words, myself and other Native English speakers reading this thread can tell you aren't yet a master of the language. I'm not insulting you by saying you're not a native English speaker, neither was Einstein, but he got by.

Quote:
3. My understanding and practical use of language obviously isn't something designed for you to understand since you prefer misrepresenting me to bask in your ill gained riches.


In case you were about to ask for an example of how you aren't a master of the English language, Look no further.^^^ I don't know what that **** means in your language, but it means **** all in English.

Quote:
4. I don't know what collateral means according to you even if I had paid and lost over 10b ISK or 100b ISK in it for the matter.
Only stupid fools would be so ignorant to fall into traps of intention to control their courier while clients try to set them up with collateral and other obligation such as waste of time, inciting others to boycott, and fleets designed to spy and clutter forums thread, plus insults investor by calling them fools and stupid to spit on the outmost good faith nature of their insurance investment compared to the good faith reasons you may give.


In case you were wondering how I knew you don't know what collateral means, Look no further ^^^ That's not what it means...

Go back, read my post again, pull your head out of your ass, and stop trying to internet toughguy the only person in this thread who is bothering to give you practical advice.
Pontryvel Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-07-11 13:06:44 UTC
Ragnar Izanagi wrote:
Quote:
Probably not as stupid as you are doomed to make me sound, I agree.

Believe it or not, dude, I'm the only one in this thread NOT insulting you. Shut up and listen.

Exactly my point Sherlock.
I started this thread and I don't have to be told to shut up and listen to your non-sense.
Bye, move along.

I sure the hell won't be spending my weekend over trying to please your request to rip me off and tell me to shut up to waste my time and money.
I don't have to listen to you and I sure the hell don't need to.
Ragnar Izanagi
#37 - 2015-07-11 13:08:54 UTC
Pontryvel Crendraven wrote:
Ragnar Izanagi wrote:
Quote:
Probably not as stupid as you are doomed to make me sound, I agree.

Believe it or not, dude, I'm the only one in this thread NOT insulting you. Shut up and listen.

Exactly my point Sherlock.
I started this thread and I don't have to be told to shut up and listen to your non-sense.
Bye, move along.

I sure the hell won't be spending my weekend over trying to please your request to rip me off and tell me to shut up to waste my time and money.
I don't have to listen to you and I sure the hell don't need to.



I take it back. I was wrong all along... He is every bit as stupid as he sounds. Have at him, boys.
Pontryvel Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-07-11 13:09:25 UTC
Ragnar Izanagi wrote:
What I mean by "not your first language" is exactly what I say... You were born, you learned a language OTHER THAN ENGLISH, you grew up a bit, and you LATER learned english...

No I did not, I more than learned English and like I said, also did hire a English Major from New York University before the 9-11.
Just because you quote donkeys in this thread or try to make yourself pass as one, or as if some intelligence agent disguised as a dog don't mean I have to associate with you.
It is thanks to people like You that we are where we are at now.
And even she can attest of that (the English major that is.).
Ragnar Izanagi
#39 - 2015-07-11 13:22:30 UTC
Pontryvel Crendraven wrote:
Ragnar Izanagi wrote:
What I mean by "not your first language" is exactly what I say... You were born, you learned a language OTHER THAN ENGLISH, you grew up a bit, and you LATER learned english...

No I did not, I more than learned English and like I said, also did hire a English Major from New York University before the 9-11.
Just because you quote donkeys in this thread or try to make yourself pass as one, or as if some intelligence agent disguised as a dog don't mean I have to associate with you.
It is thanks to people like You that we are where we are at now.
And even she can attest of that (the English major that is.).



Oh really? you HIRED and english major? Well I didn't have to, I've been speaking english with perfect fluency for over 3 decades. I was born into it. I could form a sentence better than you before I popped the tit out of my mouth. You know why people major in English at NYU? Because they grew up speaking Farsi or something, and learning to speak english is an actual accomplishment for them. I can speak circles around your friend because she simply dabbles in a language in which I've been imbued for a lifetime.

As for my experience with this game, or the idea that I'm somehow trying to con you, I've been playing this game for almost a decade... The day I made this toon, Nickelback had a song in the number 1 spot. Nickelback... If I wanted to steal from someone, I'd steal from someone who knew what the hell they were doing. You have nothing I want.

Escobar Slim III
YOLOSWAGHASHTAGDOLLARBILLZSWIMMINGPOOLICECREAMS
#40 - 2015-07-11 13:53:40 UTC
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