Player Features and Ideas Discussion

At 4 years, such a +5 character has maybe gained 4-5 months over a character that only uses +3 implants all the time. (1 month per 408 days of this plan, no remap from the standard)

With another plan that is a bit more closer to what people might train, such a person also gains barely a month over a character with +3s.

Now, there is a difference, obviously; however, it is by far not as large as people depict it. It takes ~12 years (maybe 10 if I factor in remaps) of sitting in a +5 to gain a full year over a +3 character.
If a person sits this long in a +5, just to get the skills a couple of days per month, a month per year, a couple of months per half a decade faster, by all means let them ruin their game. If these people complain about how boring the game is, by all means show them their failure. If a person in +3s is complaining about how slow skill training is, suggest them to use +5s but also visualize to them what they risk if they continue their current path of action (maybe that person was already active in low sec and is merrily shooting stuff) and/or what they are going to lose in terms of action/activity/content if they confine themselves to High sec for just a couple of days difference.

I am now 4 years old, and I have reached a point where I do nothing more but hone what I already know in terms of skills and can do nothing else but to branch out into other races (I used to be quite Amarr focused), but now I have trained almost everything that Amarr has to offer. This is 6 more years of training until he has such a lead over me. And by then, it does not matter at all anymore if I can fly 3 carriers and he 4.

The potential comes with more risk. If you undock in that pod and die in High sec to a ganker, which is more likely these days than ever before, you lost hundreds of millions. By keeping these implants safe in a station, however, you also lose out on a lot of action and make your game experience less enjoyable (depending on your needs and ambitions). There are more risks to the game than just losing stuff. Which means, by forcing yourself to a fast training, you consciously bar yourself from the game itself and confine yourself into an unsatisfying existence.

still like the atrebute implants to be gone from the game,but your rigth for many thats not the biggest issue when it coms to risk ws reward,then look at ship cost vs risk,a dessy to gank a exhumer and if lucky pods miner to with lvl5 implants, then do the math,the risk vs reward are so oute of scale if you iven take in to accont time spent,dessy pilot 22 sec for a kill of 8-900m or so,and only losing 20m or so and not iven that if hi kan loot his ovn ship,20m takes no time to replace but 900m is a lot for many players.

seems like the less risk involved in pvp the more mobile and flexible a person becomes, more willing to say yes to pvp

Rivr, your argument about how long it takes for +5 implants to make a difference is an argument against keeping them in the game. If it really takes that long for the implants to put you ahead, then they should be removed. They are an item of marginal utility that creates an additional cost to PVP. The only implants it makes sense to use in Eve are ones that make your spaceship better right now, unless you do not actually plan to undock.

Your entire post just oozes with all the reasons why learning implants and attributes need to go the way of the dodo.

Those things all make your ship better right now. The +5 set does not. The game encourages people to risk using nice modules and ships because they increase the chances of winning the fight. The +5 set does not increase the odds of winning the fight, it only adds to the penalty. And, because it takes months or years to see an advantage from +5's, the incentive to risk them is not there.

See, again, all of those actions you listed are actually "playing" the game.
+5 imps don't effect game play.

They effect a factor that can actually be done without playing.

Also, you continue to down play the effectiveness of +5 implants. If you can marginalize gain, then the aspect of said item is not worth having.
Example would be that 5th BCU... Most of us know that it's not worth it due to stacking penalties.
That said, this module is different as it directly effects game play and outcome with modules 1-4...

Attribute implants, in no way, directly effect game play.

Look at what CCP mentioned about med clones.
They stated that the were an illusion of choice. Between a bad option of losing isk or losing SP.
The same conclusion can be drawn from attributes and implants.
They're a choice between a bad option of losing isk and losing SP/hr.

They, much like med clones, also put more risks on those who take risks, without giving any gain over those who take less risks.
IE, that missioner is a lot less likely to lose those implants than someone running around in null attempting sites.

Seliah, this has already been suggested multiple times, even on the first couple of pages. And it is absolutely no solution without more explanations, more guidance, more support, more and easier accessible and digestible information. Without these things (and a lot more), more SP do not mean anything. Players are just going to mindlessly apply them to something and in the end wasted the starter gift on the wrong skills.

Heya, relatively new player reporting in.

I started the game for the first time ~1.5 years ago. I joined because I wanted to participate in null group pvp. I remember I did the tutorials, sisters epic arc and then run missions. A month into game I made a post asking Id like to join null or low pvp corp and people recommended me to red vs. blue hisec corp to get the hang of pvping. I quit a few days after for being frustrated with:

• the lack of ingame guidance I received (I joined a r vs. b fleet and there were just ppl speaking in a jargon I didn't understood at all, when asked for help no one replied)
• pace of progression (I lost several ships to NPCs in hisec missions /a typical newb mistake I hear/ bcs I just didn't had the skills to manageably fly caracal. I felt frustrated game didn't allow me to run level 2 or 3 missions when I clearly mastered the lower tiers)

Now, I subbed again 1 and half a month ago. I noticed the opportunities map, but was looking for the old tutorial, because I remembered it gave good ISK and ships. Intuitively I found a station with an agent which gave level 1 combat mission. I wanted to make starter ISK and doing asteroid fields in ibis with civilian mining laser didn't make any sense to me. I flew to mission location and was obliterated by NPCs. Only after this I asked for help in the newb channel and someone pointed me to the help screen from where the career agents could be located.

I think the biggest difference between now and then are my expectations. The second time I entered the game I did it knowing it takes a lot of time to get to the most of content. Even now I feel if a starting solo player wants to make decent ISK, she has only two options: mining or explo. I started venturing and only after grinding the 'roids for a few days I bought my first heron and went into wormhole.

I'm not sure if giving new players 2 mil. SP at the start is a good idea. On one hand, I certainly appreciate the spaceships command skill (and others) already trained to 3 in new character (which I hear was added only 2 or 3 years ago). It allowed me to start exploring in one day (I went into whole without cloak skill and it was fun). On the other, only two days ago I got access to covops ships and it felt like progress. If I had 2 mil. SP at the start how many less days would I spent heroning it out there and getting to know new people?

PS: I remember reading through Eve Careers guide PDF. It was quite informative and despite me already knowing Eve is complex game this document explained very well what all is there to do besides pvp. Just heads up to this one resource.

I would say replace the learning implants with slot 1-5 temporary skills and give everyone a fixed 2700SP/h regardless of what is being trained.

Quite a few players don't want to plug in and train say projectile weapons just to see if they like them. Give them three different implants that provide small/medium/large projectiles level 4. If they get the large level 4 it also gives small and medium level 4 and so on. That should scale the value a bit as well.

Another implant could provide support skills. Say turret support level 1-4.

So in other words, it would let new players quickly get to try out new game features without spending weeks training. Also if you want to get level 5 or T2 you will still need to train the real skills as the implants won't count towards that SP at all.