Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Which has nothing to do with what he stated.

Everyone should be given welfare purplez and get boosted to lvl 100 so they can instantly do Battlegrounds. What do you mean "but you just made them avoid the whole game"?

Not to argue against you, exactly... but there's a certain logic to the idea that since the only way to get SP is to buy PLEX (or, it's equivalent - a monthly sub) that you have to buy SP with IRL cash.

It does not. Everyone can buy the same implants. Everyone has access to them. There are no better implants than the existing ones available for RL money ... yet.

If they place skill training time over fun in the game because of implants, it is their choice. A choice they take voluntarily and consciously. Nothing requires or coerces people to use +5 implants, everyone does it on their own accord.

You can buy complete characters on character bazaar. So whether a new player has 0 SP, 2 million SP, or a 50 million SP cruiser pilot to start with, the meaningful questions have to do with figuring out what to do with those characters. Worrying about the minutiae of how new characters should get their first months of SP is failing to see the forest.

This is true, however, a monthly sub can only provide a base SP per month.
You can increase that in game buy earning the isk to purchase the implants, however, if you have plenty of RL cash, you don't need to invest the time in game in order to get the implants.

Lets say it takes you one month to earn the isk for the implants.
This means that the person who purchase the PLEX will already be a month ahead, and will have earned like 1/4 to 1/3 more SP that month than the other player.
In a 1 year span, you can accrue 2-3 months worth of additional SP through the use of +5 implants.
(possibly more, but I don't have anything to check this right now)

That said, you can purchase ships and modules with RL cash, however, I can take that away from you by destroying your ship, so it doesn't give you an advantage that I cannot reach.

In the case of SP, I cannot take that from you.
It cannot be destroyed through any means. Sure I can destroy the implants you've purchased (though this can be a bit more difficult without bubbles), but any amount of additional SP you've attained due to those implants, cannot be removed.


In the case of newbros, this is especially detrimental. Your first 10-20 mil SP is the most important that you will obtain, as it will consist of your core skills, and it effects how soon you learn and/or accomplish certain milestones.
For many newbros, this early experience teaches them that attribute implants are VERY important, as your SP value is often used to determine your worth, capability, and/or experience with Eve.

This leads to the averse development through the system.
If a player does not develop a taste for destruction and loss early on, they develop the mindset that SP acquirement takes precedence, which then leads them to develop an averse behavior towards isk loss as this is how you purchase implants, which then leads them to equate that isk loss to the loss of a ship.

Hardwiring implants, for some reason or another, don't seem to harbor this same mentality.
Take a mission runner for instance, they know they can increase their performance through the use of hardwiring implants, but in most cases, your ship and fit is perfectly capable without them.
Thus, hardwiring doesn't have the same developmental "need" that is harbored through learning implants.

Sure, removing them won't make everyone take more risks (for a lot of vets that's mentality has already been developed), but if there's a chance that it will increase risk taking in vets, and foster more risk involvement from newbros, then it's worth doing.

Actually, the entire community of Eve coerces the use of +5 implants by demanding SP levels to be met in order to join a corp/alliance. Many corps/alliances and activities demand capability to be able to fly and fit certain ships, in certain ways, etc. etc..

While they do not come out and directly say "you need +5s", the demand for SP requirements to be met, and the general understanding that SP determines worth and/or capability within Eve, fosters an importance towards the gain of SP, which in turn subliminally suggests the importance of +5 implants.

At a certain point in time this no longer becomes the case... Take me for example, I have almost 60 mil SP and most of what I have trained is everything I want. As it sits now, the skills I'm currently training are to simply give me more options and/or optimize certain capabilities. However, due to my early development, I still have a mentality of optimizing my training times, therefore, I leave +5 implants in as much as possible.
That said, I will every once in a while, jump into a clone without implants. However, once the jump CD is gone, I immediately got back into my +5 clone, which often times leaves me stranded in a clone when someone suggests we go do something risky...

I don't care about my hardwiring implants because Eve and the player base haven't caused the development of "need" into those, so I would likely take those risks with those implants still in my head, just because I don't really care about them.
Hell, if I lost them, I'd probably start flying around with 3% implants, just cause I don't need them.

But as I've said, the game and the player base have fostered a mentality that SP attainment, and thus attribute implants, are the most important aspect of Eve.

Remove these implants and attributes as a whole, give all players a base SP/hr that cannot be modified, and suddenly one of the largest causes and/or excuses of risk averse behavior is gone.

If the SP/hr gained by implants is wrapped into the game, what you've mentioned at the end of your comment becomes a non-factor.
Everyone, in any activity, and any part of space, will be able to attain SP at the same rate, with the same amount of risks.

As far as the bulk of your comment, what you've described is the very aspect of most pay to win games.
Most P2W games don't give you something that others cannot obtain (though some do), but instead they give you something that will take a non-paying player much longer to obtain.

Now, the player that uses RL cash takes more risks because, to him, that isk and items don't have the same emotional value.

As an example, if you earn 20 dollars through means of work, you're going to be conservative with that money and spend it on things that are important to you.
However, if I give you 20 dollars, you are more likely to blow that money on the next thing you find yourself wanting.
That said, at a certain point in earning of something, you're able to develop a half and half relationship between the two.
You earn enough money to take care of your wants and needs.

This is the same in Eve. Once you've earned enough SP and/or isk, you will begin to take more risks because you've attained what you feel you need, and can then focus on what you want.

In the case of attribute implants, these are essentially like a promotion in your job that you deem so important to your well being.

The difference between P2W and EVE is that you cannot buy experience or knowledge. SP merely enable you to use a tool. How to use it, how to use it effectively, how to enable hidden usage scenarios or features is all not buyable by RL money. And this, the teaching of knowledge, is actually something the NPE should take care of, in addition to a moderate increase in starter SP in some skill areas (this seems to be absolutely necessary and I still do not fully understand why it is).

You are also placing way too much focus on the SP part of the equation when SP surplus/lack is only one part of the equation. And you also take the same line as those people in alliances requiring SP minimums, something you complain about: SP focus.

I don't feel I'm putting too much emphasis on the SP part of the equation.
The reason I say this is because the sooner you earn the SP required, the sooner you will learn those hidden usage scenarios or features as well as how to use it effectively.

Take the factor the individual out of it and use the same player in each situation.
We'll assume it takes 1 year to train for a said ship/fit/activity.
The player with the implants will get there 2-3 months sooner, and will be 2-3 months more experienced at said task than if he hadn't used the implants.

Now, if you assume that there's not cap to his personal learning capability, this means that by he stays 2-3 months ahead, regardless of what he would have done without the implants.
Obviously there is a cap to the your capabilities within Eve, due to fittings and/or situation potential, but you also develop exterior factors sooner. IE, little tips, tricks and fits.
You also get to start on the next milestone sooner, so you're always ahead, and with the advantage +5 implants, you get further and further ahead the more milestones you add.

At 4 years into the game with implants, that player would have had the capability and experience that would have taken him 5 years without them.

If you're only looking at the small picture of milestone 1, the gap doesn't seem that large. Once you start adding milestones, the gap becomes larger and larger.

Also, attribute implants is one of the few aspects remaining of Eve where you get no gain from taking risks.
So, a risk averse player in HS is actually gaining something with significantly less risks than someone in low, and that person compared to null or WH.
Isn't potential supposed to increase with more risk?