These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

On Tukoss's remains and the DED

Author
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#41 - 2015-06-29 05:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Rhavas wrote:
You make my point. They owe you nothing. If you are your own person, make your own choice. If you are loyal to an Empire, see how their sovereignty is eroded through these actions.

If you are already a one-cluster government sheep, I cannot help you.


CONCORD's reduction of the sovereignty and culture of Amarr is my concern with them, and it's a concern I've raised many times in the past including during the Pakshi conference. But the thing is, it's not me they owe answers to. They owe answers to my government. Capsuleers are always acting like we have some special right to demand their attention, but we don't. If Amarr demands I take action, then I will. But as long as CONCORD is the law of the land, we have an obligation to follow that law. Just as we have an obligation to follow the laws set down by our empire governments and our local governments.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#42 - 2015-06-29 05:56:17 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
This is wonderful news. I'm so pleased you came to this decision, Lord Raholan.

On the downside, I can no longer eat the cakes people were sending to Scherezad. That's a pity.

I will bring you some cake! I'm just getting fat like this, anyways.
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#43 - 2015-06-29 06:19:09 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Capsuleers are always acting like we have some special right to demand their attention, but we don't. If Amarr demands I take action, then I will. But as long as CONCORD is the law of the land, we have an obligation to follow that law. Just as we have an obligation to follow the laws set down by our empire governments and our local governments.


I would argue that as long as CONCORD is the law of the land, if you don't like the law, you have an obligation to drive to change it. Do you really believe that Empress Sarum and her court would not pay attention if the entirety of CVA / PIE sent her letters of protest? Could you make the decision in your empire? No. But Sarum is no fool, she knows that her most loyal capsuleers are more important to the success of her Empire than much of her own Navy.

And in the Federation (and a lesser extent the Republic), public voices hold more sway.

As for the Caldari ... they accept the discrediting and persecution of a corporation under their banner who have pursued someone the CEP considers a known traitor, and yet they bow to the will of CONCORD. Mind blown. Apparently they are willing to trade Heth for Korachi while Reppola and Oiritsuu sit idly by chatting in the Kaalakiota gardens.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary

H1de0
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#44 - 2015-06-29 07:23:23 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
When CONCORD demanded Sleeper components with no risk, fools gave, despite a third-party option that would have held them to account. CONCORD benefited and yet kept us in the dark.

We still have not been told why the Sleeper component drive was truly required for the Tech 3 Destroyers, or what connection it had to Thera. We still have not been told of what CONCORD knew of the Sisters involvement and their doings while hiding there. We have not been told in any way why the Society of Conscious Thought was invited to the Inner Circle discussions, yet Eifyr & Co. was not, nor were the facts ever released.

And what have we gained? Drifters. Maybe that's a good trade.

When they offered bounties of unheard levels on four capsuleers - something that was not done even for Tibus Heth himself, a true menace to the stability of New Eden - you caved, and Korachi gloats while you give away your independence and the sovereignty of the individual empires. And do you think we will truly get the full story of what they were looking for so urgently? I think we all know that answer.

You had offers of safe harbor, financial support, and the moral high ground. But I guess the threat of title revocation and a bumpy ride to a CONCORD-free clone vat was too unpalatable. A price too high for freedom. Another small step on the path to your "Empress" being simply too weak to do anything but bend the knee herself to the "greater good".

Too many in this discussion embrace the slow death of 1000 cuts. You are immortal, you are empowered, yet you cower before an organization that has outlived its usefulness, its sponsorship, and its charter. The light of Caroline's Star has heralded a new age, and it is time to embrace it.

I am a Lord of Anoikis, as are all in Bob's grace. The Mittani could crush one of the old Empires with barely a pause if he chose to do so. The future is not beneath the cloak of blindness CONCORD throws over you.

Yet you chose to be a beholden Holder. Or whatever CONCORD might title you now that you are properly subservient.


Such an easy thing putting things that others own, value and cherish on the line..

Take in to account Rhavas-san, that it wasn't only Raholan-san himself, but, via the Court Chamberlain's statement, his House and property hence his family well-being. As far as I know him, if the consequences would have adhered to his person alone, as a capsuleer, he would probably be more then willing to play "hide and seek" with the DED. Given the power and possibilities we posses, most of us would. But there are things in our lives even we can't afford to gamble upon.

Raholan-san kept this going long enough. The case gained public traction. Statements where made. Logic and arguments discussed. But in the end the price was simply to high.

All we can do now is honour the decision.

Decrypting the Sleeper cache..

Darkblad
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-06-29 07:45:55 UTC
Unfortunately, I was not able to follow the recent events as closely as I desired. I was too busy investigating different developments that is rumored to change other areas of the New Eden Cluster within the next days. This even prevented me from leaving my current location for several weeks now.
While I'm no relevant part of the community of active researchers in the field anyway, I still want to express my support for those that had the courage to stand their ground, even though it did'nt last. Sadly, It's only words of support from me, yet. I hope my own situation and schedule will allow me to change that sometime in the near future.

I am worried a lot on the way that CONCORD uses their ever growing powers and independence to put pressure on Individuals. Threatening scientists and other capsuleers that earned great reputation, only to treat the remains of Dr. Tukoss with a level of dignity and respect.

In the light of CONCORD's accusations, I see Lord Raholan's decision as the only choice he had, even though I still wonder what the real reasons are that drove CONCORD to this sort of attack.

I wonder where the Coordination and Relations went, that are the central part of the name CONCORD. The aggressive behaviour (with words, for now) of this organisation worries me since quite a while now and I agree with those of you who consider CONCORD to no longer be an entity of the law but rather one of suppression and pirates.

I wonder what CONCORD tries to hide from us.

NPEISDRIP

Kahar Dex
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#46 - 2015-06-29 10:36:22 UTC

I have similar reservations against CONCORD, and I am dismayed that we have forced Raholan's hands.

It would have been more suitable to hand over the corpse directly to the Empire, and let them make the final decision.

At the Drifter invasion, CONCORD was nowhere to be seen, and nothing was done to the vile pirates who took advantage of the situation by attacking Amarrian warships after their bruised and bloodied fight to protect the Empire and system innocents.

Abhorrent.

His Eminence Cardinal Kahar Dex of the CVA and Imperial Dreams. Follow The Cardinal: @kahardex

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#47 - 2015-06-29 10:48:12 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
This is wonderful news. I'm so pleased you came to this decision, Lord Raholan.

On the downside, I can no longer eat the cakes people were sending to Scherezad. That's a pity.

I will bring you some cake! I'm just getting fat like this, anyways.


I can make pods with expandable waistbands if you're interested :)
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2015-06-29 14:52:30 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
CONCORD's reduction of the sovereignty and culture of Amarr is my concern with them, and it's a concern I've raised many times in the past including during the Pakshi conference. But the thing is, it's not me they owe answers to. They owe answers to my government.


They don't. Can you not see for yourself that CONCORD is the government in the space of the old Empires? Even the Matari, as they rebuild their society to bring the Tribes back to the position of primacy they ought to enjoy, bend the knee to CONCORD's orders. That is not a reduction of sovereignty, it is a denial of it.

CONCORD allows the Empires to keep the people in line, to keep them distracted with petty feuds and entertainments, while they each surrender their agency, their self-determination, to the Bastards of Yulai. Be free of them. They offer you nothing but false security and empty promises. Has YA0 ever Burned, as Jita has, as Amarr has? Have even the weakest strongholds of the Great Wildlands, or Delve, or Fountain, ever felt the Empires' wrath, or CONCORD's supposed 'power' to even a tithe of that measure?

The darkness shall swallow the land, and in its wake there will follow a storm.

CONCORD holds itself above even the Empress, the Tribes, the Corporations, or the Senate. And you let them. You, and your 'Empires' kowtow to their corruption, their pathetic, mewling helplessness that promises safety, but can deliver only the barest sop of retribution. What use is 'safety' if it does not actually prevent harm from being done, but only delivers a slap on the wrist to the immortal offenders?

They demand your obedience, and offer nothing in return. Be free of them, New Eden. Take responsibility for your own lives, your own security. Beyond the impotent grasp of CONCORD are vast regions of space ripe for the taking... for those willing to rise to greatness.

Be free of them. Your destiny is waiting, out there, in the darkness where they have told you that you must be afraid.

We are waiting.
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2015-06-29 15:54:30 UTC
Kahar Dex wrote:
I have similar reservations against CONCORD, and I am dismayed that we have forced Raholan's hands.

It would have been more suitable to hand over the corpse directly to the Empire, and let them make the final decision.

At the Drifter invasion, CONCORD was nowhere to be seen, and nothing was done to the vile pirates who took advantage of the situation by attacking Amarrian warships after their bruised and bloodied fight to protect the Empire and system innocents.

Abhorrent.


Cardinal Dex,

Before we write any further, it is our sincere hope we do not offend or anger you with any of our assertions. That said, we have noticed a fair bit of confusion regarding the aggressive attacks by Drifters striking our home systems and the apparent unsympathetic lack of reaction from CONCORD.

As a registered Solicitor, we can tell you that it is difficult even for licensed capsuleer law practitioners to acquire the full text of the fourteen Articles of Yulai Convention (the original from Yioul in YC0 or any amendments thereafter), and we must rely on recorded DED and SCC legal actions and any legal precedents set in official tribunals. However, it is clear that CONCORD and its enforcement arm DED were established for the varied purposes of:

  1. Enforce a perpetual climate of non-agression between the four recognized Empire states, with the exception of limited proxy conflict between state-registered Militias, as per the Emergency Militia War Powers Act (Rev 2)
  2. Pursue punishment (but not proactive prevention) of criminal acts within Empire space between capsuleers in order to unburden Empire navies from such resource-intensive enforcement activity.
  3. In an assistive capacity for acts of smuggling or other minor criminal enterprise.
  4. Monitoring and enforcing fair practices in trade agreements and trade transactions through the CAD and SCC.


You will note that CONCORD's charter does not involve defending Empire states from a foreign or alien attacking force. Would the role of CONCORD change if the situation becomes so dynamic as it was with the Amarr-Jove War? Perhaps this question is even more complicated since the Jove eventually bring themselves to be assembly contributors, unlike Drifters who provide no dialogue or conference with Empires or capsuleers.

If we wanted CONCORD to intervene with Drifters then the proper way to do it would be to influence the Empire delegates who can present a case to CONCORD's Inner Circle on their debating floor. If successful, this may trigger an amendment to CONCORD's Articles to allow offensive intervention. This may also have a very adverse effect on our day-to-day taxes, as I imagine this sort of CONCORD contribution does not come free of charge.

We know that DED is considering the Drifter threat from a technical point of view, no doubt upgrading their Marshal and Enforcer fleets with technology capable of combating Drifters. But no one has laid the political groundwork for a change in CONCORD charter. This would be the proper means to introduce a change, not withholding biomass or scathing complaints against DED on IGS.

That is our humble opinion. Again, we hope we have not spoken out of line, or offended the esteemed Cardinal.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)

Utari Onzo
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#50 - 2015-06-29 16:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
Goldfinch wrote:
Kahar Dex wrote:
I have similar reservations against CONCORD, and I am dismayed that we have forced Raholan's hands.

It would have been more suitable to hand over the corpse directly to the Empire, and let them make the final decision.

At the Drifter invasion, CONCORD was nowhere to be seen, and nothing was done to the vile pirates who took advantage of the situation by attacking Amarrian warships after their bruised and bloodied fight to protect the Empire and system innocents.

Abhorrent.


Cardinal Dex,

Before we write any further, it is our sincere hope we do not offend or anger you with any of our assertions. That said, we have noticed a fair bit of confusion regarding the aggressive attacks by Drifters striking our home systems and the apparent unsympathetic lack of reaction from CONCORD.

As a registered Solicitor, we can tell you that it is difficult even for licensed capsuleer law practitioners to acquire the full text of the fourteen Articles of Yulai Convention (the original from Yioul in YC0 or any amendments thereafter), and we must rely on recorded DED and SCC legal actions and any legal precedents set in official tribunals. However, it is clear that CONCORD and its enforcement arm DED were established for the varied purposes of:

  1. Enforce a perpetual climate of non-agression between the four recognized Empire states, with the exception of limited proxy conflict between state-registered Militias, as per the Emergency Militia War Powers Act (Rev 2)
  2. Pursue punishment (but not proactive prevention) of criminal acts within Empire space between capsuleers in order to unburden Empire navies from such resource-intensive enforcement activity.
  3. In an assistive capacity for acts of smuggling or other minor criminal enterprise.
  4. Monitoring and enforcing fair practices in trade agreements and trade transactions through the CAD and SCC.


You will note that CONCORD's charter does not involve defending Empire states from a foreign or alien attacking force. Would the role of CONCORD change if the situation becomes so dynamic as it was with the Amarr-Jove War? Perhaps this question is even more complicated since the Jove eventually bring themselves to be assembly contributors, unlike Drifters who provide no dialogue or conference with Empires or capsuleers.

If we wanted CONCORD to intervene with Drifters then the proper way to do it would be to influence the Empire delegates who can present a case to CONCORD's Inner Circle on their debating floor. If successful, this may trigger an amendment to CONCORD's Articles to allow offensive intervention. This may also have a very adverse effect on our day-to-day taxes, as I imagine this sort of CONCORD contribution does not come free of charge.

We know that DED is considering the Drifter threat from a technical point of view, no doubt upgrading their Marshal and Enforcer fleets with technology capable of combating Drifters. But no one has laid the political groundwork for a change in CONCORD charter. This would be the proper means to introduce a change, not withholding biomass or scathing complaints against DED on IGS.

That is our humble opinion. Again, we hope we have not spoken out of line, or offended the esteemed Cardinal.


This. This is the means for change, not acting rashly, not making threats of action against a legal body no one here can cash in on. It is by petition and public pressure that we can enact change, by making it politically untenable not to do so.

As mentioned by Ms Bloodstone and my superior Lt Kernher, it's one of the means we hoped the PPC could make a difference.

Your excellency, Cardinal Dex, I hope you might lend your voice and efforts to making legal change through this proper proceedure.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Quin Mansa
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-06-29 16:17:35 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
CONCORD's reduction of the sovereignty and culture of Amarr is my concern with them, and it's a concern I've raised many times in the past including during the Pakshi conference. But the thing is, it's not me they owe answers to. They owe answers to my government.

The wisdom of the Court Chamberlain and Imperial Chancellor was not lost on Lord Raholan, whom i believe responded admirably to God's test. I can scarcely imagine the weight of such a decision.

However, having only returned to duty after these recent events transpired, I would echo the concerns of my brothers and sisters in faith. We must spare no effort to ensure that the faithful, no matter where in Creation, are not deceived by such outbursts of belligerence from peregrine forces. God is with His Chosen; His Word and none other is Law.

"Today, our future is in our hands, and His light shines down upon us." - Her Holiness Catiz I

Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#52 - 2015-06-29 21:22:58 UTC
An Amarrian berating another organisation for being tyrannical. Such irony can only be appreciated during the dark times for freedom and justice we are living through.

That being said, I do not disagree with capsuleer Raholan's statements and his actions were reasonable in the face of such insanity. It is obvious that no sensible argument will deter an organisation that is prepared to offer enough ISK to buy a whole fleet of warships for something petty as inspecting a genetic sample for its match with CONCORDs capsuleer registry.

The fact that CONCORD actually acts in such extreme ways does not bode well though. What next?
Kale Silence
Doomheim
#53 - 2015-06-29 22:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Silence
Odo Korachi wrote:
To those who seek to levy personal attacks against myself and wider verbal attacks against the DED, feel free. The Directive Enforcement Department is mandated to uphold the integrity of the Yulai Convention and ensure compliance with Interstellar Law, it is not within our scope of operations to bend the rules for those who feel they may be above the law.



How about next time you do the big boy thing and ask for it nicely and only give threats when compliance isn't given, before going straight to it.

You are an a**hole and this Raholan dude deserves an apology in the form of previously threatened plexes!

Also, he wasn't acting "above the law". He's a f***ing Amarrian and I can still see he was trying to be honorable! He complied when a true authority he was under ordered him to obey, and so he did. The DED has as much power as the empires give them, and no more. You seem to keep forgetting that, you p***y.

The DED is pathetic if they think they still hold respect from capsuleers. Isn't the point of the law to serve and protect? How about you try serving and protecting, rather than ordering and attacking? Hmm?

Bunch of a**holes...
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#54 - 2015-06-30 02:17:19 UTC
Whelp, their goes any leverage the capsuleer community could have negotiated with.... sad.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#55 - 2015-06-30 14:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Leopold Caine
Funny, I thought you'd have held on those for at least a bit longer, Raholan. I suppose I was too naive and had too high hopes for your integrity. Pity to see events play out like this, but I'm certainly glad I'm not much of a betting man.

Lucas Raholan wrote:
...demands and threats befitting that of the Angel Cartel...


I find it rather insulting to imply we have so little class.

Quote:
...who see CONCORD and the DED for what they truly are, nothing better than pirates of the worst kind.


Insert mandatory 'told you so'.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

Mark726
Project Compass Holdings
#56 - 2015-07-01 02:09:42 UTC
I was disappointed to turn my attention back from solely planetary manners to see this development, though I can hardly fault Mr. Raholan for his decision to put his family first and foremost.

I am glad this situation has resolved peacefully, but I cannot help but wonder what CONCORD will demand next in the interest of fulfilling their mandates, and what the price exacted will be. Day by day, I become less and less clear on exactly what, if anything, is at all worthy of my trust and support, but those are thoughts for another time.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#57 - 2015-07-01 14:19:44 UTC
"Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account.

"And I saw something else under the sun:
In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
in the place of justice—wickedness was there.

"I said to myself,
“God will bring into judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time to judge every deed."

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Max Singularity
House Singularity
Sixth Empire
#58 - 2015-07-01 19:58:06 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
When CONCORD demanded Sleeper components with no risk, fools gave, despite a third-party option that would have held them to account. CONCORD benefited and yet kept us in the dark.

We still have not been told why the Sleeper component drive was truly required for the Tech 3 Destroyers, or what connection it had to Thera. We still have not been told of what CONCORD knew of the Sisters involvement and their doings while hiding there. We have not been told in any way why the Society of Conscious Thought was invited to the Inner Circle discussions, yet Eifyr & Co. was not, nor were the facts ever released.

And what have we gained? Drifters. Maybe that's a good trade.

When they offered bounties of unheard levels on four capsuleers - something that was not done even for Tibus Heth himself, a true menace to the stability of New Eden - you caved, and Korachi gloats while you give away your independence and the sovereignty of the individual empires. And do you think we will truly get the full story of what they were looking for so urgently? I think we all know that answer.

You had offers of safe harbor, financial support, and the moral high ground. But I guess the threat of title revocation and a bumpy ride to a CONCORD-free clone vat was too unpalatable. A price too high for freedom. Another small step on the path to your "Empress" being simply too weak to do anything but bend the knee herself to the "greater good".

Too many in this discussion embrace the slow death of 1000 cuts. You are immortal, you are empowered, yet you cower before an organization that has outlived its usefulness, its sponsorship, and its charter. The light of Caroline's Star has heralded a new age, and it is time to embrace it.

I am a Lord of Anoikis, as are all in Bob's grace. The Mittani could crush one of the old Empires with barely a pause if he chose to do so. The future is not beneath the cloak of blindness CONCORD throws over you.

Yet you chose to be a beholden Holder. Or whatever CONCORD might title you now that you are properly subservient.



I support this product and/or service. Does not disappoint. Would recommend again.

Harbinger of Faith His Holiness Maximilian Singularity VI, Pope of New Eden

First Champion House Kador (defeated) - #MagnateGate

Viceroy Interview & Apostle In Amarr

Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#59 - 2015-07-01 21:16:35 UTC
What would that testament be?

Odo Korachi wrote:


(...)
Once this process is complete, formal legal notification of confirmation of his death will be provided to Eifyr and Co, and the process of exercising his last will and testament may begin.
(...)

Regards,

Brg. Gn. Odo Korachi
Marshal, Genesis Fleet
Directive Enforcement Department
CONCORD Assembly

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#60 - 2015-07-01 21:24:38 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
What would that testament be?

Odo Korachi wrote:


(...)
Once this process is complete, formal legal notification of confirmation of his death will be provided to Eifyr and Co, and the process of exercising his last will and testament may begin.
(...)

Regards,

Brg. Gn. Odo Korachi
Marshal, Genesis Fleet
Directive Enforcement Department
CONCORD Assembly



Wouldn't it just be ironic if he left his remains to medical science...