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Caracal Navy Issue, Level 3 mission boat
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Jordon Wallace
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-06-28 17:44:32 UTC
So after many trades I have picked myself up a CNI, was wondering if you guys had any fits for this boat that don't require implants. With the changes that came to HAM's I think this boat now has real potential.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#2 - 2015-06-28 18:33:13 UTC
it doesn't really make sense to use it for lvl 3 missions, the amount of tank you'll need for some of the mission would completely mess up the fit.
Jordon Wallace
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-06-28 18:35:49 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
it doesn't really make sense to use it for lvl 3 missions, the amount of tank you'll need for some of the mission would completely mess up the fit.


You sure, the vanilla version I can see that but the Navy Variant should be able to hold it's own in Level 3 missions no?
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-06-28 20:32:02 UTC
The Navy Caracal has one extra launcher, slightly more HP, and is slightly faster than the normal Caracal. The difference is very underwhelming. In PVP the Navy Caracal is overshadowed by the Scythe Fleet Issue which is much faster so you hardly ever seen them flown. For PVE, the resists are exactly the same as the normal Caracal, so you will be taking the same amount of damage and the small increase in buffer isn't going to do anything for you. Not to mention it has no range bonus so you'll have to get closer to apply your damage.

Basically...you can try it. But don't expect anything you couldn't get out of a normal Caracal.

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Titan's Lament
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5 - 2015-06-28 22:01:10 UTC
I doubt it will have a tank issue, well unless you plan to get full aggro and sit still. the navy caracal doesn't seem to have a range bonus and that makes me feel like it will be underwhelming in pve, especially with something short range like HAMs

I would guess it works, but it looks boring and ineffective.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Jordon Wallace
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-06-28 22:46:03 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I doubt it will have a tank issue, well unless you plan to get full aggro and sit still. the navy caracal doesn't seem to have a range bonus and that makes me feel like it will be underwhelming in pve, especially with something short range like HAMs

I would guess it works, but it looks boring and ineffective.


What would you suggest as a alternative?
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#7 - 2015-06-29 03:10:05 UTC
well that mostly depends on skills.

Drake is the classic lv3 runner, and uses rather similar skills to the caracal. Has more launcher dps and a drone bay. typically fit with heavy missiles.

personally I don't really like missiles so I stay away with them. Not sure how well a Ferox works, but I would guess decently. My go to last time I did 3s was an ishtar, although that is a completely different skill set. if your skills are more advanced I'd be happy to list some other options. There are a number of ideas in these two threads:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=427956
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=421421&find=unread

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Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-06-29 05:50:53 UTC
I'm lazy so when I grind standing with corps and doing level 1-3 missions I used a Gila. It just cruises through them easy peasy. Shoot frigs with RLML and use your medium drones on everything else, I think I had around 700 dps from drones alone.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#9 - 2015-06-29 06:37:17 UTC
It's just lvl 3, you'll do a bunch of them and then you're ready for lvl 4. So get the most obvious option, Drake in you case, get them out of the way and move on.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-06-29 19:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
caracal navy isn't so hot, big price tag for something that caracal already does fine with (since you don't need explosion radius bonus on rapid lights)

the only other way to take advantage of the bonus would be to use HAMs and that doesn't really make any sense on such a paper thin ship

Imo it needs to be reworked into a reduced reload time bonus but then I guess it will mean it will destroy frigates even harder than it already does.

Would have loved to have seen a moa navy more tbh with tracking and optimal and big natural buffer.

Art of Explosions
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#11 - 2015-06-29 21:55:30 UTC
I used to do level 3 missions in a normal caracal all the time, in a region where missiles were cheaper than hybrid ammo. Albeit, that was a while ago, but still, kinda wondering why everyone's so down on the poor ship.

L3 missions are in the Cruiser to BC difficulty range, you'll have to be more careful of your ranges and movement than in a Drake but you should be fine.

EDIT: I kind of agree that the Navy Issue isn't really worth the cost, though.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#12 - 2015-06-29 22:58:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Lost Greybeard wrote:
I used to do level 3 missions in a normal caracal all the time, in a region where missiles were cheaper than hybrid ammo. Albeit, that was a while ago, but still, kinda wondering why everyone's so down on the poor ship.

L3 missions are in the Cruiser to BC difficulty range, you'll have to be more careful of your ranges and movement than in a Drake but you should be fine.

EDIT: I kind of agree that the Navy Issue isn't really worth the cost, though.


Well, there's a few variables:

- the mission itself, some are super easy while others will kick you in the nads
- the pilot, it all depends on how well skilled one is and how much is focussed on that ship fit
- the player, some ppl are more knowledgeable on the game and/or are willing to put in more (brain) effort


So it's just safest to assume it'll all go south and state that you're just best off using a BC, Drake in this case.
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#13 - 2015-06-30 01:21:50 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
So it's just safest to assume it'll all go south and state that you're just best off using a BC, Drake in this case.


Yeah, but unless something goes catastrophically wrong more than ten times as often and blows up your ship with the cruiser than with the BC, you're still better off in terms of overall cost with the cruiser. Depending on the specific cost of the cruiser and BC hull + fit, obviously, but it being 5 mil versus 50 mil isn't unusual.

Since few things short of an actual disconnect are going to kill you either way... meh.

The other thing to think about with the Navy Ships is that generally they're considered worth suiciding for the lulz, where vanilla cruisers are not. Because someone killed in a Caracal is all "oh, that sucked. Time to boot up Caracal #713, then" and someone in a navy issue is more like "damn you to hell forever! I spent a week grinding the LP for that, you scurvy dog!"
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#14 - 2015-06-30 05:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Jordon Wallace wrote:
What would you suggest as a alternative?

Pretty much passive drake territory. Or if you are really into hawks. I don't know about the Navy Caracal on lvl3's, I suppose with fair skill. I hardly took Caracal on a lvl3's. In fact I've only had one in my career here and gave it away, fitted, to someone who did a little hauling for me. I think I remember struggling with a Caracal on a lvl3 long ago early on (couple hard missions), before I trained into drake. In retrospect, I should have just trained into hawk back then and skipped BC all together.

Oh and yeah, I'd just sell the navy caracal. I mean unless you are just reeealy into caracals as some are and have disposable isk. Seems it would be the Caldari Navy ship that would draw the most ganker attention. Not as quick as the hookbill, or tough as the CNR. If anything, you might be better off spending the ISK on better mods.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#15 - 2015-06-30 06:59:37 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Pretty much passive drake territory.


No, PLEASE stop telling newbies to passive tank their Drake. It's an old, outdated, completely wrong meme that teaches newbies bad habits.

Yes it makes tanking really easy but it's very bad for applied dps. Missiles NEED rigor/flare rigs to actually apply any sort of decent damage (this is why ppl say heavies suck, but they don't realise it) which means you can't fit purger rigs, which in turn means you can't really passive tank, which thus means that you want to active tank it. And because of the resist bonus and the massive amount of mid slots you can get away with using a small shield booster just fine.

Full explanation is here.
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-06-30 07:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Azda Ja
Gregor Parud wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Pretty much passive drake territory.


No, PLEASE stop telling newbies to passive tank their Drake. It's an old, outdated, completely wrong meme that teaches newbies bad habits.

Yes it makes tanking really easy but it's very bad for applied dps. Missiles NEED rigor/flare rigs to actually apply any sort of decent damage (this is why ppl say heavies suck, but they don't realise it) which means you can't fit purger rigs, which in turn means you can't really passive tank, which thus means that you want to active tank it. And because of the resist bonus and the massive amount of mid slots you can get away with using a small shield booster just fine.

Full explanation is here.

Can I bring my draek?

In all seriousness though, do look into basic Missile mechanics, it's quite a bit different from turret mechanics and knowing them is a huge help, whether it's PVE or PVP.

Grrr.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#17 - 2015-06-30 12:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Gregor Parud wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Pretty much passive drake territory.


No, PLEASE stop telling newbies to passive tank their Drake. It's an old, outdated, completely wrong meme that teaches newbies bad habits.

Yes it makes tanking really easy but it's very bad for applied dps. Missiles NEED rigor/flare rigs to actually apply any sort of decent damage (this is why ppl say heavies suck, but they don't realise it) which means you can't fit purger rigs, which in turn means you can't really passive tank, which thus means that you want to active tank it. And because of the resist bonus and the massive amount of mid slots you can get away with using a small shield booster just fine.

Full explanation is here.

Old debate, years old. And when I was flying them regular, I had a passive and an active, doing lvl3's and some lvl4's. Wound up refitting the active to a passive. But nice little vid there, to bad hardly anyone has paid it any attention with it's low view count.

Oh and I don't complain about missiles, other than the delayed applied damage, but more of a fleet issue (e.g. incursions etc). Even so, a missile buff is coming up, so even less of an issue for those that believe it so.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-06-30 12:33:17 UTC
Passive used to be better until the drake nerfs, right now the permarunning small booster does indeed make more sense now

Art of Explosions
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#19 - 2015-06-30 13:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Webvan wrote:
Old debate, years old. And when I was flying them regular, I had a passive and an active, doing lvl3's and some lvl4's. Wound up refitting the active to a passive. But nice little vid there, to bad hardly anyone has paid it any attention with it's low view count.

Oh and I don't complain about missiles, other than the delayed applied damage, but more of a fleet issue (e.g. incursions etc). Even so, a missile buff is coming up, so even less of an issue for those that believe it so.


"I got caught saying something silly and rather than acknowledge it I'll get passive aggressive trying to diminish the shown facts by lolling at some number, as if that somehow disqualifies said facts. Also I don't know how the missile changes will pan out (hint, you'll still be better off with rigor/flare for the simple reason that losing 2-3 mid slots hurts more than 2-3 rigs and there's more stacking issues with the modules) because I still don't know how stuff really works".
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-06-30 16:15:23 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Full explanation is here.

Nice video. Not a PVE person so I'd never considered active Drake for missions.

I am curious about your choice of 2 rigors + 1 flare, vs. 3 rigors. I was under the impression that rigors are always better since they don't suffer from stacking penalties. If you look at the missile formula a Rigor I gives a multiplier of 1/0.85 = 1.176 whereas a Flare I is 1.15. Additionally the radius ratio can compensate for the speed ratio but not vice versa (because of the minimum in the formula). The only time I could see an advantage in using a Flare is if you are using tech 2 rigs and have run out of calibration for a third Rigor II (a Flare II is slightly more effective than a Rigor I).

I fiddled with rigs versus different target speeds in EFT for your fit and couldn't get better performance from a Flare than a third Rigor. Any insight or something I missed? To be fair, it is a very slight difference in performance (1-5 dps).

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
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