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Why can drone ships use up-size weapons?!

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Madrax573
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-06-23 05:43:31 UTC
Why?

In Rises recent update on Ishtars etc it was mentioned that the ability to up-size the weapon system of drone ships is something they like.

Seriously no other weapon system is capable of usefully us-sizing weapon systems?

Downsize yes you trade a lot of to be able to track/hit small ships but up-sizing is precisely the problem that is giving the ishtar and other drone using ships their power levels. What would be wrong with making it use medium drone better like they did with the GILA? It used to be able to use all sorts and it was a monster is various types of engagement but it brought in line and while it now still a very powerful cruiser it isn't the be all and end all of drone combat.
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#2 - 2015-06-23 06:15:04 UTC
Let me shoot guns off a ship and I'll let any other ship fit oversized guns.

Seriously, having your drones destroyed is a big drawback for the weapon system and that is why they must be inherently more powerful in certain ways to compensate such a weakness.
Aeon Veritas
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-06-23 06:28:38 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest #40
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.

This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.

Is that a sufficient answer for you?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#4 - 2015-06-23 06:37:19 UTC
Aeon Veritas wrote:
Is that a sufficient answer for you?

"I like something so **** game balance"
Yes, that's a sufficient answer.

Oh god.
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#5 - 2015-06-23 06:37:51 UTC
Madrax573 wrote:
What would be wrong with making it use medium drone better like they did with the GILA?


Also, keep in mind that up-sizing drones does NOT give you more dps. Not wanting to fire up Pyfa just to get exact numbers, but: Heavy < 2meds+ 1 light < 5lights. Drones were designed so that it would not be interesting to slap biggest possible drone in the bay. You actually need to choose drones according to your bandwith to achieve maximum dps.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-06-23 07:10:35 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Aeon Veritas wrote:
Is that a sufficient answer for you?

"I like something so **** game balance"
Yes, that's a sufficient answer.



Well of course the flipside being if drones get size locked that cuts both ways and big ships lose lights. No-one wants that. It's strongly hinted at by Rise in that quote.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#7 - 2015-06-23 07:42:37 UTC
Which big ships? Carriers?

Oh god.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#8 - 2015-06-23 08:32:26 UTC
UGH not this thread again...

Because Bob hates you, Thats why ishtars can use bigger drones now PLEASE go and think on something else this has been discusses to death with nothing ever coming out... We;ve seen all permutations and versions...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-06-23 08:35:07 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Which big ships? Carriers?



All of them.

He explicitly mentions that ships bigger than destroyers get to use frigate sized drones.

This is very much a case, imo, of be careful what you ask for.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#10 - 2015-06-23 08:39:09 UTC
No, I think you've got the wrong idea. Large ships have always been able to downsize weapons. Missile boats even have systems specifically for that purpose, yet a cruise missile boat can't switch to LMs at will (though it can probably still use light drones). I don't think people have an issue with large boats downsizing weapons and I don't see how locking large boats to large weapons would even lead to big ships being lost (since when do we not want big ships to explode anyway). Are we just talking about PvE here, because solo BS hasn't really been a thing in some time.

Oh god.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#11 - 2015-06-23 08:47:06 UTC
why do you think that sentries are "sized-up" weapons?? They are drones which require lots of bandwidth, yes, but thats it - there were cruiser ships with enough bandwidth for sentries.
Drones are not guns.
Serenity 159080
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-06-23 08:59:39 UTC
Bombers use torpedoes.
Attack Battlecruisers use battleship sized turrets.
Oversized prop mods
Cruisers use Large Shield Extenders and 1600mm Plates
Logistic Cruisers use Large Remote Repairers

.... and so on.

Calling something "large" or "battleship" doesn't automatically make it overpowered, being unbalanced with a lack of drawbacks causes the issues. Sentries have far too many benefits for their only weakness of being destructible. It's unrealistic to destroy hundreds of drones individually in large fleet fights, making them resilient, however a smartbomb can clear an entire wave, making them fragile. This sort of mechanic is very polar, and doesn't really provide enough gameplay.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#13 - 2015-06-23 09:00:57 UTC
Madrax573 wrote:
Why?

In Rises recent update on Ishtars etc it was mentioned that the ability to up-size the weapon system of drone ships is something they like.

Seriously no other weapon system is capable of usefully us-sizing weapon systems?

Downsize yes you trade a lot of to be able to track/hit small ships but up-sizing is precisely the problem that is giving the ishtar and other drone using ships their power levels. What would be wrong with making it use medium drone better like they did with the GILA? It used to be able to use all sorts and it was a monster is various types of engagement but it brought in line and while it now still a very powerful cruiser it isn't the be all and end all of drone combat.




Did you pay attention to what they did with the Gila? Sure, it uses mediums... But those mediums aren't exactly putting out the same damage of a regular bonuses flight of 5 mediums are they? No. Other than flight time, they are arguably worse for you in every way possible.

It's got medium tracking and flight speed, signiture and the damage output almost equal to a rack of sentries while being almost as hard to kill as the host ship.

Yes. Please do that to all drones.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#14 - 2015-06-23 09:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Robert Caldera wrote:
why do you think that sentries are "sized-up" weapons?? They are drones which require lots of bandwidth, yes, but thats it - there were cruiser ships with enough bandwidth for sentries.
Drones are not guns.


You're right. Guns don't have selectable damage. Guns don't have infinite ammo. Guns can't engage from any range. Guns can't be placed over there while I shoot you from over here. Guns can't be pulled back and redeployed, forcing you to re-lock your target. Guns can't allow me to do frig, cruiser and BS damage as I see fit, on a hull of my choosing.

Oh god.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#15 - 2015-06-23 09:11:45 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
why do you think that sentries are "sized-up" weapons?? They are drones which require lots of bandwidth, yes, but thats it - there were cruiser ships with enough bandwidth for sentries.
Drones are not guns.


You're right. Guns don't have selectable damage. Guns don't have infinite ammo. Guns can't engage from any range. Guns can't be placed over there while I shoot you from over here. Guns can't be pulled back and redeployed, forcing you to re-lock your target. Guns can't allow me to do frig, cruiser and BS damage as I see fit, on a hull of my choosing.


Well... Projectiles have selectable cap free damage, as do missiles. Lasers have infinite ammo. Guns don't suffer from drone control range, you can engage what you lock. Guns can't be shot out of space without defeating my tank. Guns have options with implants not available to drones.

You are right that drones have some unique qualities. They also have unique and powerful drawbacks.

I can agree that perhaps looking at bandwidth on some boats would be appropriate, but drones themselves still have significant tradeoffs to justify their abilities.
Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-06-23 10:57:44 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Which big ships? Carriers?



All of them.

He explicitly mentions that ships bigger than destroyers get to use frigate sized drones.

This is very much a case, imo, of be careful what you ask for.

Small laser Rokh is a thing btw. It shouldn't have to be, but because of how EVE mechanics are it is one.

Master of being misunderstood.
Madrax573
Doomheim
#17 - 2015-06-23 11:25:04 UTC
I love the tears :)

Anyways.....

Drone have there own inherent advantages and disadvantages. But allowing ships to 'effectively' use up-sized weapons systems is a really dumb thing when you are talking balance systems.

Up-sized prop mods/tanking mod have there own issues around fitting etc that require sacrifice to be able to use them. The ishtar is probably the last ship that has pretty much no downside to using 'up-size' weapons. As pretty much proven by the fact that they are so totally over shadowing all other ships in pvp (in term of usage)

Yes other smaller ships can use up-sized drones but only in very small numbers and they are inherently weaker than the advanced T2 Ishtar.

Lets face it. There is no compromise for the Ishtar to use a BS sized weapon system what so ever. Name any other cruiser that can use a full set of BS sized weapons?

That my friends is the simple essence of the imbalance that is the Ishtar. All the tweaks that CCP are doing to the DDA's and drone stats are not really required if you take this out of the equation. Simple system analysis show you this. Complex systems analysis could also show you how to fix it but I can't be bothered to go into high lvl sys analysis as I have beer to drink.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#18 - 2015-06-23 14:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Madrax573 wrote:
Lets face it. There is no compromise for the Ishtar to use a BS sized weapon system what so ever. Name any other cruiser that can use a full set of BS sized weapons?

Moot point since the Ishtar is not a cruiser it is a HAC so why are we always comparing the Ishtar to everyone else's T1 cruisers?
That is not to say that the Ishtar does not need some further tweaking just wondering why we are always comparing a HAC to T1 cruisers.
Hull size is perhaps the most obvious one that you all may come up with and since the Ishtar is a HAC we could easily counter that with it is a HAC therefore is uses superior types of materials allowing for more strength, higher resistances with less space lost to the structure of the ship giving more space for drones and other things. Not out of line since this is common practice in modern combat aircraft and space ship design.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#19 - 2015-06-23 15:12:31 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

Moot point since the Ishtar is not a cruiser it is a HAC

ishtar and HACs are T2 cruisers, just saying.
Gila is a T1 faction cruiser, but CCP nerfed its sentry capability iirc.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#20 - 2015-06-23 15:41:26 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
why do you think that sentries are "sized-up" weapons?? They are drones which require lots of bandwidth, yes, but thats it - there were cruiser ships with enough bandwidth for sentries.
Drones are not guns.


You're right. Guns don't have selectable damage. Guns don't have infinite ammo. Guns can't engage from any range. Guns can't be placed over there while I shoot you from over here. Guns can't be pulled back and redeployed, forcing you to re-lock your target. Guns can't allow me to do frig, cruiser and BS damage as I see fit, on a hull of my choosing.


Well... Projectiles have selectable cap free damage, as do missiles. Lasers have infinite ammo. Guns don't suffer from drone control range, you can engage what you lock. Guns can't be shot out of space without defeating my tank. Guns have options with implants not available to drones.

You are right that drones have some unique qualities. They also have unique and powerful drawbacks.

I can agree that perhaps looking at bandwidth on some boats would be appropriate, but drones themselves still have significant tradeoffs to justify their abilities.


No they dont. They have EM/THERMAL/EXPLO with some other variants as a combo of explo/kinetic damage which do low damage. Capless yes. Also arty tracking cannot compare to sentry. Sentries are better than arty in all ways. Which include shooting strictly kinetic. I know you arent comparing acs, cause theyre **** and cant kill much of anything past 20km. I cannot engage a garmur at 50km with my autocannons, sry. I cannot track a frig in orbit at 20km with arty either. If youre in a drone boat though, just release some light drones and youll be fine. Just cause i can lock something, doesnt mean i can do anything about it. My rack of guns can be affected by a single TD. It would take 5 TDs to affect your flight of drones, for one drone ship. Which no one would do. You can damp a turret ship, and then im SOL cause i cant shoot anything. Drones will keep fighting though.

Lasers dont have infinite ammo, the crystals do burn up eventually. I can shoot your drones, but you have a 375m3 drone bay full of replacements. Meanwhile youre taking 0dmg, while im taking all of your damage. On top of that, you have durability bonuses to that 375m3 of drones. You basically have a battleships worth of EHP in drones in your cargobay plus another 30-60k EHP in your ship. Shooting drones as a way to counter drone ships is one of the dumbest excuses i hear. Its possible yes, but highly impractical.

I really think CCP needs to make the decision on drone ships. Either big drone bays, but not bonused HP. Or bonused HP and smaller dronebays. Not both though. Otherwise the whole "you can shoot mah drones" excuse is moot.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
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