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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Author
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#781 - 2015-07-09 22:29:59 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here?

And the Eos has 125 AND a gun bonus. I mean, why would anyone ever use an ishtar?
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#782 - 2015-07-10 06:06:08 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here?

The myrmidon is a completely different ship.
different boni, t1, different class, can actually fit guns etcetc. Ah and it costs just 50millions.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#783 - 2015-07-10 06:16:20 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here?
And the Eos has 125 AND a gun bonus. I mean, why would anyone ever use an ishtar?

I don't see Eoses everywhere. What is the purpose of tiering then? Dessies eat frigs, cruisers eat dessies, BC eat cruisers, no wait cuisers eat everything above their class. Now we have D3, even better, but hey new ships, whooo.
Sentries are BS class weapons, if lower class may have ability to use them they shouldn't field whole pack of them, even if they are drone boats. Why stratios has no problem with them? 100mb bandwith, but no, Rise want to eat the cookie and have the cookie.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#784 - 2015-07-10 06:29:46 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
The myrmidon is a completely different ship.
different boni, t1, different class, can actually fit guns etcetc. Ah and it costs just 50millions.

Can fit guns but don't have bonuses to them, cost is meaningless.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#785 - 2015-07-10 10:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Quote:

[Ishtar, Armour Fleet]
Damage Control II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Co-Processor II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II

Bouncer II x5
Warden II x5
Curator II x5


Yeah, the meta is only going to shift into armour and it's going to have even more fekkin' range.

with just a squad boost (no links) this fit has:

Damage and Projection:
Drone Control Range - 172km
Curator II's - 455 DPS @ 90km (+20km) [similar tracking to a Heavy Beam Laser II using multi frequency]
Bouncer II's - 425 DPS @ 70km (+90km) [similar tracking to a 720mm Howitzer II using T1 ammo]
Warden II's - 410 DPS @ 120km (+70km) [3 times faster tracking than a 250mm Railgun II using Spike ammo]

Tank:
47k eHP (omni)
Resist profile - 65.7 77.7 88.8 69.2
145m Sig Rad w/out prop
500m Sig Rad with prop

Mobility:
MWD Speed - 1221m/s cold (1732 m/s hot) Cap stable under propulsion
Aligns in 6.4s

Sensors:
Max locked Targets - 7
Targeting range - 176km cold
Sig Resolution - 404mm
Sensor Strength - 27.6

In comparison:
An 1600mm plate Zealot with HBL II's shooting Aurora gets 323 DPS @ 105km (+16km)
Over 100 DPS less
1/3 the tracking of Curators
47.5k eHP (Similar Tank)
1430 m/s under MWD (can't run and gun)
103km lock range

An Eagle can project as well as an Ishtar but with only half the DPS.

The Muninn is still not worth mentioning

Why can't you see that having the 5km control range, 5% damage, optimal and tracking bonus to sentry drones is the real problem?

The current mobility and Slot layout are better than previously. However, please, just realise that the sentry drone bonuses on this hull need to be removed. Swap them with the bonuses of the Eos. The Eos could really use the projection that the Ishtar enjoys but will be hamstring by the inherent issues with being a CBC hull (mobility and size).

The Ishtar would then be inline with the other HAC's in projection and application when used in the "Fleet" style.

It would then have excellent heavy drone abilities in the close range brawler style.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#786 - 2015-07-10 10:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Spugg Galdon wrote:

Why can't you see that having the 5km control range, 5% damage, optimal and tracking bonus to sentry drones is the real problem?
.


I have come to the hypothesis CCP has stuff on a dart board and 2 scenarios are possible as a result .

No one at CCP can shoot to save their lives and double in/out to play a proper game of (darts) cricket would just kill them. So they must have put this on the double ring and miss it again and again.

Or

They have a darts pro who is missing this on purpose and looking real good at making it look natural.


The DDA was needed admittedly to some extent as some drone boats were moving up in the ranks. But that again....could be solved by targetted fixes. Its not like CCP doesn't know how to shut down worm....they did a bang up job for years at it. (edit worm mentioned since a twit from fozzie I saw somewhere, wanna say FHC, was going on listing lots now liked drone boats spammed).

Its just the group punishment is bleeding over too much. And the problem children have loopholes to offset most of the nerf.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#787 - 2015-07-10 11:27:01 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
No one at CCP can shoot to save their lives and double in/out to play a proper game of (darts) cricket would just kill them. So they must have put this on the double ring and miss it again and again.

Or

They have a darts pro who is missing this on purpose and looking real good at making it look natural.

Hahaha. I love the cricket, but we always playing cut-throat version. CCP propably have problem with 301, regular.

Zan Shiro wrote:
The DDA was needed admittedly to some extent as some drone boats were moving up in the ranks. But that again....could be solved by targetted fixes. Its not like CCP doesn't know how to shut down worm....they did a bang up job for years at it.

Gila and worm are exactly in possition CCP wants them. Top of the food chain. Now I'm waiting for T3 nerf, which is obvious and put those hulls in hangars for years. CCP will never get that "the chart" is making ships more and more inbalanced.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#788 - 2015-07-10 11:29:19 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
The myrmidon is a completely different ship.
different boni, t1, different class, can actually fit guns etcetc. Ah and it costs just 50millions.

Can fit guns but don't have bonuses to them, cost is meaningless.

If cost is meaningless... why doesnt everyone use faction mods? I don't because of the price (except for 1 module)
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#789 - 2015-07-10 11:45:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
For now the TFI will not get the same bonus change. We'll see how this shakes out and evaluate after.

Can you please explain the reason behind this?

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#790 - 2015-07-10 12:09:51 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
If cost is meaningless... why doesnt everyone use faction mods? I don't because of the price (except for 1 module)

Cost is meaningless for balancing the hulls. If it cost twice will it be more usefull?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#791 - 2015-07-10 12:11:30 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:

The current mobility and Slot layout are better than previously. However, please, just realise that the sentry drone bonuses on this hull need to be removed. Swap them with the bonuses of the Eos. The Eos could really use the projection that the Ishtar enjoys but will be hamstring by the inherent issues with being a CBC hull (mobility and size).


Combat battlecruisers and issues with mobility? Maybe if you have no idea that that MMJD exists.

So you intend to combine the plague of sentries with the plague of medium rails in one hull?
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#792 - 2015-07-10 12:29:54 UTC
I agree with folks who say that the sentry-specific bonuses are a large part of what makes the Ishtar so powerful. The combination of range, damage, and application in a cruiser hull puts it in a class of its own.

But I feel like part of the problem is also that the Ishtar can achieve all of this using virtually no powergrid for its high slots, which leaves plenty left over for fitting tank, pop mods etc.


I think CCP took a step in the right direction by nerfing the Ishtar's powergrid, but I would go further. I would remove the turret hardpoints altogether, and savagely nerf the powergrid to levels that assume that pilots can only fit things like Drone LInk Augmentors in their highs without using a fitting mod. You want neuts? Fitting mod. Remote rep? Fitting mod.

You get the idea.

This would force a sentry Ishtar to choose two or three of speed, tank, range, and damage. If Ishtars couldn't do all four at once, I think that would go a long way towards balancing them.

If CCP is hellbent on keeping the Ishtar as a sentry sniper (and they certainly seem to be), then give up on the silly notion of it ever fitting guns and balance its powergrid accordingly.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#793 - 2015-07-10 12:59:06 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
I agree with folks who say that the sentry-specific bonuses are a large part of what makes the Ishtar so powerful. The combination of range, damage, and application in a cruiser hull puts it in a class of its own.

But I feel like part of the problem is also that the Ishtar can achieve all of this using virtually no powergrid for its high slots, which leaves plenty left over for fitting tank, pop mods etc.


I think CCP took a step in the right direction by nerfing the Ishtar's powergrid, but I would go further. I would remove the turret hardpoints altogether, and savagely nerf the powergrid to levels that assume that pilots can only fit things like Drone LInk Augmentors in their highs without using a fitting mod. You want neuts? Fitting mod. Remote rep? Fitting mod.

You get the idea.

This would force a sentry Ishtar to choose two or three of speed, tank, range, and damage. If Ishtars couldn't do all four at once, I think that would go a long way towards balancing them.

If CCP is hellbent on keeping the Ishtar as a sentry sniper (and they certainly seem to be), then give up on the silly notion of it ever fitting guns and balance its powergrid accordingly.


They could just split the apple in 2 if they want to go slow like removing either the tracking OR the optimal. Why are sentry the only weapon system where this kind of bonus exist anyway?
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#794 - 2015-07-10 13:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
If cost is meaningless... why doesnt everyone use faction mods? I don't because of the price (except for 1 module)

Cost is meaningless for balancing the hulls. If it cost twice will it be more usefull?



This. CCP can't balance in the lowest common denominator. In this case the cheaper meta/t2 spamming player. As it takes just 2 out 8 players to not be cheap and splurge to create some fun moments real fast.

Here for example is how old school dramiel spam started. A few of these flown well....could wreck larger numbers of say t2 frigs like AF's. As no AF love in sight at that time guess what many did? They ratted more and said can't beat em, join em. Dramiel got you home in one piece at its much higher isk cost than a cheaper AF did. This like the visa commericials of old said was priceless sometimes.


CCP is also aware they do have the richer players who aren't scared to spend some isk. CCP long story short knows there are players who aren't saving up to be Chribba. They have 500 mil extra end of month they buy stuff. Can't take it with them as it were.

This can get easier for players like me who don't emo rage when we use RL to pay our sub. Rl money covers my sub due to play time constraints, if I make only 400 mil isk for the month....that's 400 mil fun money. This how I make eve fun tbh. Had me a nice run to jita today for example. Clearing up some final things for the night then off to play with some new toys.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#795 - 2015-07-10 13:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Spugg Galdon wrote:

MWD Speed - 1221m/s cold (1732 m/s hot) Cap stable under propulsion


That's like drake slow...

This will really hurt them. It makes them far less able to dictate range successfully around sentry tracking an optimals, makes bubbling them that much more effective too. The old shield fits were a solid 20-25% faster.

They'll still be effective to be sure (nothing wrong with that) but I feel like some decent counterplay has room to grow into the new space.

Now if only the missile mods had been less bad, that would have afforded some excellent tools to shake the meta up but...whatever....can't have everything.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#796 - 2015-07-10 15:47:34 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:

MWD Speed - 1221m/s cold (1732 m/s hot) Cap stable under propulsion


That's like drake slow...

This will really hurt them. It makes them far less able to dictate range successfully around sentry tracking an optimals, makes bubbling them that much more effective too. The old shield fits were a solid 20-25% faster.

They'll still be effective to be sure (nothing wrong with that) but I feel like some decent counterplay has room to grow into the new space.

Now if only the missile mods had been less bad, that would have afforded some excellent tools to shake the meta up but...whatever....can't have everything.



The other HACs aren't exactly super speedy and the 3 minute cooldown on an MJD is a very very long time in pvp

The Eos would suit those bonuses much more than the Ishtar.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#797 - 2015-07-10 16:31:17 UTC
I am still saying... make the ishtar the armor version of the Gila... but instead of 2 drones give it 5 medium and better application bonuses to make up for lack of secondary weapon bonus...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Justin Cody
War Firm
#798 - 2015-07-12 23:34:02 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here?

And the Eos has 125 AND a gun bonus. I mean, why would anyone ever use an ishtar?


Because its slow as fark with a big ole sig and more limited drone reinforcement and bonuses only apply to heavies and not sentries?
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#799 - 2015-07-13 06:09:48 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Cost is meaningless for balancing the hulls. If it cost twice will it be more usefull?

If it costs twice, it means it takes lot more general effort to make the item. Should the item be better if it takes a lot more effort to acquire one?

Let us not forget that when CCP said "balancing by cost is wrong", it was applicable the case that was very specific in many ways.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#800 - 2015-07-13 06:38:59 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
If it costs twice, it means it takes lot more general effort to make the item. Should the item be better if it takes a lot more effort to acquire one?

In ideal condition, yes, but It's not that simple.
What we have:
SNI - around 472 mil
Rattle - around 350 mil
Players driven market.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville