Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Thing is, it could work easily and really well.

Take it like this:

A Point Defense Destroyer would have 8 high slots and a mix of mid and lows like they do now.

The racial Point Defense System (PDS) would then have three different ammo types:
Anti Missile
Anti Drone
Anti Bomb

These ammo types would all deal a "special" type of damage. For arguments sake, we'll call it "Snowflake". Snowflake is a special damage type that is "invisible" to the player. All items other than missiles, drones and bombs have a 100% resistance to it.

This will prevent PDS being used as an offensive weapon.

Now, the PDS is activated on a target ship, just like defender missiles work now. If you are using anti missile ammo, that ship will require to be launching missiles for it to activate. Same for drones. The PDS will then shoot down missiles or drones effectively. If Anti Bomb ammo is loaded, it will work exactly how FoF/Auto Targeting missiles work now with the caveat that their only valid target are bombs. This will allow the ship to effectively defend against bombers without having to target the bombs/bombers themselves.

Que fleet commanders screaming "POINT DEFENSE! POINT DEFENSE!" when they see bombers decloaking.

Ammo reload takes 30 seconds which can give windows of opportunity.

Slap, Bang, Wallop. Bombers fixed. Firewalling fixed. A new role for a "newbro" fleet member to carry out which is obscenely important.

If you're the newbro who saves the fleet of battleships from the bombing run you will be sat there with a massive erection smile.

Ok, death to firewalling.

However, you need to get cracking on the missile TD introduction. Otherwise you may kill off Ishtars Online, but just be bouncing back to HMs or RHML or RLMLs Online like the Drake days of old.

Smartbomb buff!!!!!

Think about it, smartbombs are the only damage platfrom that adds that extra dimension to certain situations that is called: the sandbox of EVE.

Compromise in DPS when fitting your fleet.

Oh noes I have to fit 5 battleships to negate an potentially infinite number of missile ships.

Probably not because its only firing 4 missiles, not 8 like CNR. I don't know if its possible to take the 4 missiles double the damage then 7/8ths it.

I say keep it the same, and count it as a risk of running a fleet of Golems (srsly... do people do that?)

missiles were at the near bottom if not rock bottom.. gratz ccp.. you closed the coffin lid and started tossing dirt on it.

why dont lazers have a chance for emp kick back? -2x cap required to be fired?
guns jam?
planetary gravity pull at the bullets/slugs?

im going to take an ishtar with sentry drones and missiles and fight someone with the CCP tag.

i can name mytholical creatures too.. the jewbecabra and its 5 earthling friends. everyone knows those 2 things are myths

I had no idea this particular game mechanic worked this way. I don't even know how I could have known! There are very many other game mechanics that don't work intuitively (e.g. the difference between when shield and armor reps land during the module cycle) and aren't explained anywhere in-game.

Has CCP ever considered writing an in-game glossary of game mechanic oddities?

I feel this is approaching the firewall problem from the wrong angle.

The goal appears to be making missiles less easily countered by 'firewalling'. To do this, we need to first determine what 'firewalling' means.

Back in 2010 The Initiative alliance coined the phrase by deploying (and filming) a BS fleet fighting Drakes. These BS used their utility slots to fit smartbombs and then clustered together to ensure all incoming missiles took sufficient damage despite the smartbombs cycle times.

Another popular tactic has been to deploy a fast moving battleship as a kind of guard around your slowly moving battleship fleet. The pilot will then position his ship such that all incoming missiles fly through his smartbomb's field of effect. Unfortunately I lack a video for this tactic,

You'll note these two tactics have drastically different implementations, trade offs and counter-play. They're also not mutually exclusive. Though it is worth mentioning that fleets rarely implement both due to the fitting trade offs required for The Initiative's variant.

The Initiative's strategy illuminates a potential means of diminishing firewalling; cycle time.

Further considering the mechanics at work we can identify another means of adjusting firewalling's effectiveness. To kill a missile, the missile must fly through the smartbombs area of effect, and must be in that area of effect when the smartbomb goes off. This means we can directly adjust smartbomb's effect on missiles by increasing missile velocity.

A change to missile velocity will make The Initiative's strategy more appealing because you have more chances to hit the incoming missile with sufficient damage. Meanwhile a change to cycle time will make both strategies less effective overall.

Let's take a moment to talk about the counter-play involved in these strategies. In order for a missile fleet to score kills against a fleet fielding an Initiative style firewall, they need to pick at the edges of the battleship fleet. In this fashion their incoming missiles take far less damage and as such they will apply more damage and potentially kill the target. Due to the timing requirements of the smartbomb and assuming the target has a single bomb fitted, the missile fleet could do as little as half their damage, or as much as all of their damage. Should the target have two medium smarties fitted, the missile fleet could do anywhere from all to none of their damage.

To counter a single firewall BS guarding the fleet, a missile fleet must have their missiles out-maneuver the guard. This can be achieved by splitting the fleet and firing missiles from two different positions (or more) at a single target. Other tactics include maneuvering the missile fleet such that the guard is going full speed one way, then shooting a target on the opposite side of his momentum, effectively 'slingshotting' the guard away from the missiles.

While discussing counter-play, it's important to note that the battleship fleets involved are fairly static making them ideal escalation targets. In fact, Initiative style BS fleets are almost immobile when under sufficient attack. Blap dreads obliterate battleships, as do bombers. It's also important to note that most anti-missile-ship BS doctrines fit mid to long range weaponry, making it possible to counter them with a brawler doctrine of T3 Cruisers or even other Battleships. Any change that is done should not result in a change of potential escalations or other non-missile-based counter tactics.

It is worth noting that in larger fights, perhaps the role of the missile fleet shouldn't be to kill the target? But to busy and corral them for other fleets/combat teams to engage them more favorably.

At the end of the day, if we want to improve counter-play while diminishing the all out effectiveness of smartbombs I believe we should look at increasing missile velocity. Missile health is fine and dandy, and quite frankly, likely needed, but velocity has far more effect on both types of firewalls. Velocity also allows for better counter-play on the part of the missile fleet, allowing them to telegraph their moves for less time and respond more rapidly to their oppositions moves.

TL;DR - Increased Missile Velocity provides more interesting tactics & effective nerfs to firewalls than missile health alone.

HEAVY ASSAULT MISSILES (180HP)

Smartbomb                 Damage     Num2kill

Lrg Faction SB:            375          1
Lrg Smartbomb II:          300          1
Lrg Fctn (same dmg type):  300          1
Lrg SBII (same dmg type):  240          1

Med Faction SB:            150          2
Med Smartbomb II:          140          2
Med Fctn (same dmg type):  120          2
Med SBII (same dmg type):  112          2

Sm Faction SB:              75          3
Sm Smartbomb II:            70          3
Sm Fctn (same dmg type):    60          3
Sm SBII (same dmg type):    56          4

GURISTAS HEAVY MISSILES (160HP)

Smartbomb                 Damage     Num2kill

Lrg Faction SB:            375          1
Lrg Smartbomb II:          300          1
Lrg Fctn (same dmg type):  300          1
Lrg SBII (same dmg type):  240          1

Med Faction SB:            150          2
Med Smartbomb II:          140          2
Med Fctn (same dmg type):  120          2
Med SBII (same dmg type):  112          2

Sm Faction SB:              75          3
Sm Smartbomb II:            70          3
Sm Fctn (same dmg type):    60          3
Sm SBII (same dmg type):    56          3

HEAVY MISSILES (120HP)

Smartbomb                 Damage     Num2kill

Lrg Faction SB:            375          1
Lrg Smartbomb II:          300          1
Lrg Fctn (same dmg type):  300          1
Lrg SBII (same dmg type):  240          1

Med Faction SB:            150          1
Med Smartbomb II:          140          1
Med Fctn (same dmg type):  120          1
Med SBII (same dmg type):  112          2

Sm Faction SB:              75          2
Sm Smartbomb II:            70          2
Sm Fctn (same dmg type):    60          2
Sm SBII (same dmg type):    56          3

GURISTAS ROCKETS (120HP)

Smartbomb                 Damage     Num2kill

Lrg Faction SB:            375          1
Lrg Smartbomb II:          300          1
Lrg Fctn (same dmg type):  300          1
Lrg SBII (same dmg type):  240          1

Med Faction SB:            150          1
Med Smartbomb II:          140          1
Med Fctn (same dmg type):  120          1
Med SBII (same dmg type):  112          2

Sm Faction SB:              75          2
Sm Smartbomb II:            70          2
Sm Fctn (same dmg type):    60          2
Sm SBII (same dmg type):    56          3

ROCKETS (90HP)

Smartbomb                 Damage     Num2kill

Lrg Faction SB:            375          1
Lrg Smartbomb II:          300          1
Lrg Fctn (same dmg type):  300          1
Lrg SBII (same dmg type):  240          1

Med Faction SB:            150          1
Med Smartbomb II:          140          1
Med Fctn (same dmg type):  120          1
Med SBII (same dmg type):  112          1

Sm Faction SB:              75          2
Sm Smartbomb II:            70          2
Sm Fctn (same dmg type):    60          2
Sm SBII (same dmg type):    56          2

GURISTAS LIGHT MISSILES (80HP)

Smartbomb                 Damage     Num2kill

Lrg Faction SB:            375          1
Lrg Smartbomb II:          300          1
Lrg Fctn (same dmg type):  300          1
Lrg SBII (same dmg type):  240          1

Med Faction SB:            150          1
Med Smartbomb II:          140          1
Med Fctn (same dmg type):  120          1
Med SBII (same dmg type):  112          1

Sm Faction SB:              75          2
Sm Smartbomb II:            70          2
Sm Fctn (same dmg type):    60          2
Sm SBII (same dmg type):    56          2

LIGHT MISSILES (60HP)

Smartbomb                 Damage     Num2kill

Lrg Faction SB:            375          1
Lrg Smartbomb II:          300          1
Lrg Fctn (same dmg type):  300          1
Lrg SBII (same dmg type):  240          1

Med Faction SB:            150          1
Med Smartbomb II:          140          1
Med Fctn (same dmg type):  120          1
Med SBII (same dmg type):  112          1

Sm Faction SB:              75          1
Sm Smartbomb II:            70          1
Sm Fctn (same dmg type):    60          1
Sm SBII (same dmg type):    56          2

I don't have citadel HP numbers handy. If anyone can provide them, I'll add them.