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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Flesh out heat

Author
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#1 - 2015-06-21 17:23:14 UTC
I have a somewhat odd proposal.

Concept:
Make it so all modules generate a small amount of heat, and that with heat 0 in a rack, no damage is taken.

Key points:
Size appropriate mods accumulate a very small amount of heat, such that a buff to passive heat dissipation means you can run a full rack of active modules without any heat build up.

Oversized active modules then suffer a problem with heat buildup, meaning to fly them as current requires high thermo dynamics skills.

Undersized modules mean you can now heat for longer, meaning a slight buff.

Sized modules start at current heat generation and work up, with twice the scaling of heat buildup for module HP.

Active and passive heat pumps and dissipation modules to spread heat fairly well, and

Purpose and intent

This is intended as a moderate nerf to oversized prop mods and ASBs. It is also to allow for more choices and tactics in overheating gameplay, and as a slight buff to destroyers and BCs as they would have better heat dissipation and be able to overheat longer if running about the same modules as a frigate or cruiser.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#2 - 2015-06-21 17:33:05 UTC
This is actually the first and only variant of this i have liked...

Although i would expect that a fit with normal sized modules run without overheating generates 0 net heat...
Passive modules do not generate heat, its already a solid question why welding a piece of plate steel to my hull costs as much power grid as a railgun...
And we might like to include some kind of slot (rig maybe? Cryogenic coolant distributor?) that drops cooldown so you can still make your 100mn vagabonds if you're willing to pay the price to do it...

Ofcourse making it so 5mn micros and 10mn abs dont have the exact same fitting requirements might help as well:)
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3 - 2015-06-21 17:43:32 UTC
nice concept, i really like it.

would make my 100mn legion a bit sad but still.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#4 - 2015-06-21 17:45:04 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
nice concept, i really like it.

would make my 100mn legion a bit sad but still.


And maybe give you a reason to look at the coolant subsystem for the first time since you learned how to t3.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-06-21 17:45:49 UTC
It's certainly a very interesting proposal. At first glance, I rather like it.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-06-21 17:47:12 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
nice concept, i really like it.

would make my 100mn legion a bit sad but still.


Not really, T3's are made to take heat. In the meta, that legion will be able to do things T1 and T2 ships just cant when it comes to oversized prop mods.

Considering what it's supposed to fix it will instead give a few niche ships like T3's more power as they will be the only ones able to use oversized mods effectively due to their innate %5 bonus to heat reduction. Considering those are the ships we see oversized mods on already I don't think this will have quite the effect your looking for.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#7 - 2015-06-21 18:04:51 UTC
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
nice concept, i really like it.

would make my 100mn legion a bit sad but still.


Not really, T3's are made to take heat. In the meta, that legion will be able to do things T1 and T2 ships just cant when it comes to oversized prop mods.

Considering what it's supposed to fix it will instead give a few niche ships like T3's more power as they will be the only ones able to use oversized mods effectively due to their innate %5 bonus to heat reduction. Considering those are the ships we see oversized mods on already I don't think this will have quite the effect your looking for.


So, since I broke my own usual policy and didn't give even baseline numbers in the OP, let me break down my concept with the numbers floating in my head.

Right now, a small Example booster generates 1 heat when overloaded, a medium example booster generates 1 heat and a large generates 1 heat.
Right now, all of those modules can take 40 heat.

The proposal is that a small Example booster generates .2 heat regular & 1 heat overloaded, a medium example booster generates 1 heat cold & 5 heat overloaded and a large generates 5 heat regular & 25 heat overloaded.

The Medium example can take 400 heat now, and the large can take 4k, while the small remains at 40.

The ships they are "intended" for now can tank 1 heat per rack (5 unheated active small modules) for a frigate, 1.5 (7.5 unheated smalls, or 2 and 1 med) for a destroyer, 6 for a cruiser ( 6 unheated meds, or 1 large + 2 meds) 10 for a BC (2 large or 1 and 4) and 30 (6 larges) with ABCs getting a buff to heat dissipated in their top rack so they can sustain their guns cold.

The large increase in heat generated by an oversized module means the entire rack will be crispy fried if you aren't careful.
T3s would still get a few more cycles out of their oversized prop mods, but overall still end up with a penalty to fitting the oversized prop mods and boosters that make them so much out of line from most cruisers.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#8 - 2015-06-21 20:16:42 UTC
I actually own a t3 on which the coolant subsystem is best:)

My webbing boosting t3 i use to move my alts bowhead;) its rocking the coolant system since it lets me OH my webs for longer incase i spawn on the far side of a regional gate from the bowhead...
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-06-21 21:17:35 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
...
Passive modules do not generate heat, its already a solid question why welding a piece of plate steel to my hull costs as much power grid as a railgun......


I assume it's not just plates of steel etc but rather plates formed from nanomolecular liquid crystal structures that can reform at will into solid hard surface to defeat AP rounds or restructure into a steel 'foam' to absorb impact/explosions. Add into that the electrical fields etc that provide resistances then its no surprise it takes a lot of power over that much surface area.

But that's just a theory.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#10 - 2015-06-21 21:45:53 UTC
I like the idea, but how do unsized mods fit in? Would a 500mn wipe a whole rack when it turns on? Would I perma overheat a web if a prop mod is acting as a heatsink?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#11 - 2015-06-21 21:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
I like the idea, but how do unsized mods fit in? Would a 500mn wipe a whole rack when it turns on? Would I perma overheat a web if a prop mod is acting as a heatsink?

If you have the 500mn on a battleship, it takes the heat fine. IF you then overheat with mostly unsized mods, you run a risk of burning them out FAST.

I would personally make them something a bit tougher but same heat as small mods.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-06-22 15:24:35 UTC
What about BCs / Destroyers? They lie in the middle, and I think they shouldn't suffer too much, if at all, from this.

It also might be worth fleshing out the mechanic to make it more obvious what's going on, for example:

Ships have the ability to radiate heat, modules create heat. If more heat is generated than the ship can deal with heat damage is taken.

BS can radiate 8 "units" of heat for a module, BCs radiate 7 units, Cruisers 6, Destroyers 5 and Frigates 4.

Large modules create 5 units of heat, Mediums create 4, and smalls create 3. Modules without a size are treated as Mediums, thus can be run normally on any ship. When overheated the modules create twice the amount of heat and deal 1 unit of heat damage.

With that scheme overheating the intended sized module creates 3 units of heat damage for Frigates / Cruisers / BSs but only 2 for Destroyers / BCs. Running an oversized module doesn't cause heat damage but when overheated it will cause 5 units of heat damage for Frigates / Cruisers and 4 for Destroyers / BCs. BS would also only generate 1 unit of heat damage for overheating any undersized module, such as Webs / TP / TC which is quite a nice buff IMO.

The only thing left would be to decide how much heat damage a "unit" actually does. 3 units being equal to how much is normally generated with overheating now sounds about right.

Master of being misunderstood.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#13 - 2015-06-22 18:02:52 UTC
Kione Keikira wrote:
What about BCs / Destroyers? They lie in the middle, and I think they shouldn't suffer too much, if at all, from this.

It also might be worth fleshing out the mechanic to make it more obvious what's going on, for example:



Quote:


The ships they are "intended" for now can tank 1 heat per rack (5 unheated active small modules) for a frigate, 1.5 (7.5 unheated smalls, or 2 and 1 med) for a destroyer, 6 for a cruiser ( 6 unheated meds, or 1 large + 2 meds) 10 for a BC (2 large or 1 and 4) and 30 (6 larges) with ABCs getting a buff to heat dissipated in their top rack so they can sustain their guns cold.


150% and 140% of the frigate and cruiser dissipation respectively, with only the already snow-flake coded ABCs getting weird about heat generated. Yes, they still crisp pretty quickly with oversized modules. No, this is not an unintended thing.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2015-08-29 08:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
so maybe I'm not understanding right, but how would it be determined if a module is the appropriate size? Would a XL module on a BC cause issues?
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#15 - 2015-08-29 09:18:55 UTC
Has possibilities.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Caleb Seremshur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-08-29 11:11:22 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
I like the idea, but how do unsized mods fit in? Would a 500mn wipe a whole rack when it turns on? Would I perma overheat a web if a prop mod is acting as a heatsink?

If you have the 500mn on a battleship, it takes the heat fine. IF you then overheat with mostly unsized mods, you run a risk of burning them out FAST.

I would personally make them something a bit tougher but same heat as small mods.


Or just make ewar mods untyped and therefore have a ceiling on incoming heat damage from overflow, capped at a given amount per mod fit on either side of it.

Also if all mods are going to generate heat then I really want alternate fire modes for my weapons, allow me to dump 10 missiles at once in a volley or rattle off 20 shots on my gatling laser. This accumulation of heat acts as its own balancing metric, front loading a ships performance and seperating the skilled from the inept via the burning out of modules (or structure damage if you want to define it as a seperate heat value).
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-08-29 23:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Redirected here from another thread. I like as well. Question that would be on the nay side would be how server copes. Since it probably tracks that anyways...

Makes me ponder and relates to an idea I had where damage causes effect. Thermal means heat. Prevents logi permatanking...

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#18 - 2015-08-30 08:30:34 UTC
James Baboli wrote:


This is intended as a moderate nerf to oversized prop mods and ASBs


Except shields are meant for you to use over sized boosters just like armor is set around using over sized plates.



and just like with over sized shields and plates prop mods already require you give up a substantial amount of fitting to balance their use.


except on a few ships there is no higher level balance needed