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An open letter to CCP.

First post
Author
Finn McCoul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-06-21 11:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Finn McCoul
Hey o/

A few days ago I posted this rather tempered, ill though out "Open letter" to CCP expressing my frustrations:

Finn McCoul wrote:
Dear CCP,

After over 2 years of play, I will be cancelling my EVE sub at the end of July.

Today, I was ganked in high sec in a freighter - the freighter some people bought a PLEX for and donated that ISK to the corp so we could buy it.



It started when roughly 3 ships started to intercept me at a gate which kept knocking me of course and in turn prevented me from warping.
I was then asked for 300 mil in ISK for a “pass” which I refused and to be frank I would actually call that a ransom.
After that someone else tried to contact me but I refused their chat invite and then 19 ships decided to take out me out.
The freighter was lost and so was our Orca which again was bought for by player donations. Over 2 billion in losses which our corp simply can’t afford to replace.

If that grief wasn’t enough one of the gankers then decided to join our open recruitment channel to then inform us (if we didn’t already know by this point) we had been ganked and then posted our kill reports to us. We were then informed that I should have indeed bought a “pass”. All this was in high sec on my way to Jita and to quite frank a little creepy.

EVE is demanding, and at times punishing, it’s part of the game but it is also very rewarding. We were hoping to set up POS’s to start moon mining and ice mining - something we’d been looking forward to for some time and building up towards it but with the loss of our only freighter and Orca it now means that our plan is on indefinite hiatus.
Just as we had started to get somewhere we’re pushed to the ground and now we just don’t feel like getting up again.

Concord just isn’t enough and did absolutely nothing. It doesn’t protect you against extortion so where were / are the in game mods? Or better yet why not have Honorary Concord Members who are players protecting players against attacks like this?

People will claim it’s part of “freedom” within the game but where’s my freedom to be able to move from one high sec system to another and not being extorted for ISK?

I enjoy EVE, I bought the Second Decade set, the LE Source book and the LE Art of New Eden books so it’s like having to leave a club you enjoy going to because there is a large group making your time there unpleasant for you so to be honest it’s sad to go but unless we start again from the start, we have no way of moving forward.

Sorry for the moan but really, extorting ISK out of players is really a step too far.

Kind regards
Finn McCoul


Yeah, not exactly a my greatest moment posting that but here are my replies relating directly to the topic:

Finn McCoul wrote:
Thank you guys for some of your words of encouragement, yes I know not to fly what I can't afford to replace and all that stuff and "rage quitting" probably isn't the best way to go about it, nor was ranting over on the forums however I hope you can understand the feelings at the time.

Besides, I never expected kind comments in return and such but Carrie-Anne Moss took it to a whole other level. Thank you for all those words of advice Carrie.



Finn McCoul wrote:
I know I mentioned this in my last post but seriously thank you some of you for your harsh, unkind but mostly valid points regarding what had happened this morning.

I enjoy the challenges EVE gives, that's why I started to l play it in the first place, this morning however felt unfair hence the outburst and perhaps I had become a bit too complacent.

I've decided to keep my sub going and try again, learn from the mistakes and see where that leads us.

Also, thanks for the heads up about Carrie, her posts are now hidden!


Finn McCoul wrote:
Well, the biggest thing I've learnt today above all else is not to cry on the forums. Hell, I won't be doing that again!

@ Ralph King-Griffin
Thank you for the link, favorited and will be reading tonight!

@ Zimmy Zeta
Sorry, I'm not giving anything away just yet. I'll keep you in mind though if / when that time comes :p


Finn McCoul wrote:


I started playing with work colleagues, we mostly ran Level 4 PvE missions to farm LP for the SoE ships. Originally I was flying a Raven but once the Gila redesign came out you could pretty much go AFK and let that ship do all the work for you.
Farming LP lead us to make roughly 70-90 mil per ship for a few hours worth of "work" but we were pulled into a corp and found the ISK we were making was peanuts.

So as for the PvP / political aspect of the game (corps and alliances) I agree I have lead a somewhat sheltered life.

ISK wise I have roughly 5 bil and then maybe twice that in assets, most was made making the SoE ships and running DED sites in wormholes.

The POS's are already set up and have been for days. I was on my way to Jita to pick up another Silo. Even after two years this is my first real time going into nul sec.
This created a new challenge because we were being caught at gates so we found a site which tells you how many kills has been in a particular system so we were using that to plot our route.

We also fitted a few ships so interwarp was possible. We went from a huge number of loses to nothing pretty much overnight.
We also found out you're more likely to get caught in a web bubble if you're moving from gate to gate or station to gate so once entering a system we'd warp to a planet or moon and then onto the Stargate, this help us a number of times getting to the next system as we missed the web bubble(s) completely unless the bubble was placed right on top of the Stargate.

The insurance payout for the freighter was 500 mil so I was going to put the extra 700 mil in there myself and get a new one. The Orca I was going to leave and see if anyone missed it first.


Warp drive active
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#2 - 2015-06-21 11:43:32 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
The ransoms is valid roleplay on the tradelanes of New Eden. Smile Freighters should insure for 130% of the build cost at Platinum, after the package cost the payout is equal to about 90% of the build cost. Cargo, of course & regrettably, is lost. Smile

I still think that freighter bumping is somewhat extreme in Hisecks.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2015-06-21 11:44:20 UTC
Finn McCoul wrote:
Dear CCP,

After over 2 years of play, I will be cancelling my EVE sub at the end of July.

Today, I was ganked in high sec in a freighter - the freighter some people bought a PLEX for and donated that ISK to the corp so we could buy it.

It started when roughly 3 ships started to intercept me at a gate which kept knocking me of course and in turn prevented me from warping.
I was then asked for 300 mil in ISK for a “pass” which I refused and to be frank I would actually call that a ransom.
After that someone else tried to contact me but I refused their chat invite and then 19 ships decided to take out me out.
The freighter was lost and so was our Orca which again was bought for by player donations. Over 2 billion in losses which our corp simply can’t afford to replace.

If that grief wasn’t enough one of the gankers then decided to join our open recruitment channel to then inform us (if we didn’t already know by this point) we had been ganked and then posted our kill reports to us. We were then informed that I should have indeed bought a “pass”. All this was in high sec on my way to Jita and to quite frank a little creepy.

EVE is demanding, and at times punishing, it’s part of the game but it is also very rewarding. We were hoping to set up POS’s to start moon mining and ice mining - something we’d been looking forward to for some time and building up towards it but with the loss of our only freighter and Orca it now means that our plan is on indefinite hiatus.
Just as we had started to get somewhere we’re pushed to the ground and now we just don’t feel like getting up again.

Concord just isn’t enough and did absolutely nothing. It doesn’t protect you against extortion so where were / are the in game mods? Or better yet why not have Honorary Concord Members who are players protecting players against attacks like this?

People will claim it’s part of “freedom” within the game but where’s my freedom to be able to move from one high sec system to another and not being extorted for ISK?

I enjoy EVE, I bought the Second Decade set, the LE Source book and the LE Art of New Eden books so it’s like having to leave a club you enjoy going to because there is a large group making your time there unpleasant for you so to be honest it’s sad to go but unless we start again from the start, we have no way of moving forward.

Sorry for the moan but really, extorting ISK out of players is really a step too far.

Kind regards
Finn McCoul


If this doesn't get locked (a good chance it will, Ranting is prohibited and 'leaving' posts belong in the Out of Pod Experience forum)), a bunch of people are about to post about how this thread is a troll, or troll bait. In keeping with my personal policy, i'll treat it as if it's sincere:


Your post is hypocritical. Your response to being 'extorted' for imaginary money in a game notorious for such actions is to attempt to extort CCP for real life money (by pretending that you will quit a video game over a legal in game action that occurred due to your own incompetence). You're telling CCP that you are going to quit but suggest that this might not happen if only CCP chooses to develop the game In such a way as to punish the EVE players that beat you at the game. And they did beat you, they (players) took something of value from you (another player, and yes that makes what happened pvp).

In essence, you lost a pvp match in a pvp game and now are telling the game makers to fix the game in your favor. Though I fly freighters and jump freighters, the biggest thing I've yet lost to 'gankers' in EVE is an empty Shuttle. Except for the shuttle, I've won all of these kinds of pvp matches (attempted ganks) I've been in in EVE, including escaping in a t1 industrial with 25% hull left when I had an officer mod in cargo. EVE has all the tools you need to win, that you don't use them is your fault.


Pixie Tickle
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-06-21 11:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Svenja Timofeyeva
I don't agree with the childish and hateful mocking of victims, but ya really brought that one to yaself and with that victim attitude ya really aren't welcome here anyway, mate.

Quote:
People will claim it’s part of “freedom” within the game but where’s my freedom to be able to move from one high sec system to another and not being extorted for ISK?
Freedom ain't a right. If ya can't fight for it, ya can't have it. Ya freedom ends where another man puts a gun on your head.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#5 - 2015-06-21 11:57:27 UTC
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose, sorry to hear you're quitting.
Cyborg Girl86
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-06-21 11:58:54 UTC
Both his freighter and Orca probably had zero tank and were fitted with nothing but cargo expanders and/or astronomic mods.

If you had fit these ships with proper tanks, there's no reason why you wouldn't have survived until concord shows up. Both of those ships can be fitted with monstrous tanks that out-do battleships by a lot, allowing one to repel huge waves of gankers.

You used fail-fits and didn't take out insurance. Simple as that. I'm not going to go into my usual "paranoia is good" speech because I feel its something people should know by now.
Cyber SGB
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-06-21 11:59:32 UTC
1. Never cry on the forums.

2. Learn from this encounter.

3. Be ready next time.

4. High Sec is a dangerous place.

I write Kindle books. Visit my author page. http://amazon.com/author/sgbynum

Lisa Gentilette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-06-21 12:00:25 UTC
2 years playing EVE and you where about to go moon mining?
Moon mining?


Trolllololololia!
Xylem Viliana
homeless bum
#9 - 2015-06-21 12:01:37 UTC
Welcome to EVE.

This is normal and perfectly normal for this game. If you dont like or arent aware of the risks after 2 years... well thats no-ones fault but yours. Also burn amarr event plus one of the highest ganking systems in eve in an untanked freighter.... with an orca in the cargo



Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2015-06-21 12:01:55 UTC
Your freedom ends where another's begins. It's up to you to minimize your level of risk, and there are ways of doing so, I know people with freighter alts who have yet to be ganked.

Also, I'm sure you've heard the infamous line "don't fly what you can't afford to lose". There's a reason for that phrase's prevalence, in fact, this is a prime example of why it exists.

You had two major opportunities to prevent any of this from happening. You could have prepared the trip better and mitigated your risks correctly (webbing alt, uncrowded tradelane, etc..), and tried paying the 300mil ransom. Actually, a third option would have been not dumping all of your and your mate's isk into a freighter you couldn't replace.

Grrr.

Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#11 - 2015-06-21 12:03:28 UTC
Tempted to think this is a CODE alt
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-06-21 12:06:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Hayson
Finn McCoul wrote:
Over 2 billion in losses which our corp simply can’t afford to replace.

Don't undock what you can't afford to lose.
High-sec isn't "blinky blinky lalala"-land. It's just safER than other parts of space. After 2 years of EVE you really should have learned at least that.

Finn McCoul wrote:
Concord just isn’t enough and did absolutely nothing. It doesn’t protect you against extortion so where were / are the in game mods? Or better yet why not have Honorary Concord Members who are players protecting players against attacks like this?


Concord did something: the gankers lost their ships. It's not Concords job to make high sec perfectly safe and PvP free.
AFAIK there are anti-ganking groups. You could have contacted them before flying through a dangerous system like Uedama and ask for advice/help.


Finn McCoul wrote:
People will claim it’s part of “freedom” within the game but where’s my freedom to be able to move from one high sec system to another and not being extorted for ISK?

Freedom in EVE means you are allowed to do whatever you want - not that things are perfectly safe, or that you don't have to fight for achieving your goals.
Go play Elite:Dangerous if you prefer that type of "freedom".


EDIT: btw, you can't do moon mining in highsec and in low/null sec a corp with your attitude wouldn't keep their POS for even a week.
Stacy Lone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-06-21 12:13:50 UTC
Finn McCoul wrote:

People will claim it’s part of “freedom” within the game but where’s my freedom to be able to move from one high sec system to another and not being extorted for ISK?


Your freedom is that you have a choice. Either being stupid, ignorant and careless and of course loosing your freighter, or being smart and careful and being safe.

From your post I gather that you broke the first and foremost important rule of EVE: Dont fly what you can not afford to loose. If you are playing EVE for 3 years, 2B in losses shouldn't be something that cripplles you, especially not if paid for from the whole corp anyways.

You can easily avoid getting ganked , so use the tools available:
- Use a scout. Don't jump into abvious gate camps
- Use a webbing alt. That character can also be your scout. If you can't afford a Loki (which you should), use a huggin or even some cheap T1 cruiser or frig. But Loki works best, 45km+ webbing range with faction mods.
- Get intel. Look at your friggin in-game map. You don't even need to read out of game sites to see that Amarr is burning, for example

- Get over it. It was 1 against 19. What do you expect? You can easily avoid the gank with a webbing alt, that is still 2:19 odds and they have virtually no chance of getting you.

- Take it as a lesson and grow from it. You want to do moon ming? Don't try it if you are whining about gank losses, because low sec / null sec is a very different beast then high sec and nobody gives a **** if your feelings are hurt when they tear down your precious POS.



Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#14 - 2015-06-21 12:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Finn McCoul wrote:
Dear CCP,

After over 2 years of play, I will be cancelling my EVE sub at the end of July.

Today, I was ganked in high sec in a freighter - the freighter some people bought a PLEX for and donated that ISK to the corp so we could buy it.

It started when roughly 3 ships started to intercept me at a gate which kept knocking me of course and in turn prevented me from warping.
I was then asked for 300 mil in ISK for a “pass” which I refused and to be frank I would actually call that a ransom.
After that someone else tried to contact me but I refused their chat invite and then 19 ships decided to take out me out.
The freighter was lost and so was our Orca which again was bought for by player donations. Over 2 billion in losses which our corp simply can’t afford to replace.
If your corp couldn't afford to replace it, why were they using it? You broke the cardinal rule of Eve, you'll get little or no sympathy from us because the consequences of doing so caught up with you.

It was your choice to fly a ship you couldn't afford to replace without support of any kind, you need to take responsibility for doing so.

Quote:
If that grief wasn’t enough one of the gankers then decided to join our open recruitment channel to then inform us (if we didn’t already know by this point) we had been ganked and then posted our kill reports to us. We were then informed that I should have indeed bought a “pass”. All this was in high sec on my way to Jita and to quite frank a little creepy.

EVE is demanding, and at times punishing, it’s part of the game but it is also very rewarding. We were hoping to set up POS’s to start moon mining and ice mining - something we’d been looking forward to for some time and building up towards it but with the loss of our only freighter and Orca it now means that our plan is on indefinite hiatus.
Just as we had started to get somewhere we’re pushed to the ground and now we just don’t feel like getting up again.
Such is the nature of the beast; activities like extortion, ganking, scams etc, that are banned in many other games are considered normal gameplay in Eve.

CCP's definition of griefing is what counts in Eve, and this wasn't it.
Quote:
Concord just isn’t enough and did absolutely nothing. It doesn’t protect you against extortion so where were / are the in game mods? Or better yet why not have Honorary Concord Members who are players protecting players against attacks like this?

People will claim it’s part of “freedom” within the game but where’s my freedom to be able to move from one high sec system to another and not being extorted for ISK?
Concord are not there to protect you, they are they to inflict punishment on people who commit the crime of unsanctioned aggression; nothing more, nothing less.

You have the freedom to try and play Eve as you want to, others have the freedom to try and play Eve as they want to; sometimes the way that they want to play conflicts with the way that you want to play. Freedom in Eve is a conflict driver.

Quote:
I enjoy EVE, I bought the Second Decade set, the LE Source book and the LE Art of New Eden books so it’s like having to leave a club you enjoy going to because there is a large group making your time there unpleasant for you so to be honest it’s sad to go but unless we start again from the start, we have no way of moving forward.

Sorry for the moan but really, extorting ISK out of players is really a step too far.

Kind regards
Finn McCoul
Extortion is a time honoured and explicitly allowed practice in Eve.

You should read this post by CCP Falcon if you're in any doubt about the kind of game Eve is.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#15 - 2015-06-21 12:20:05 UTC
Cyborg Girl86 wrote:
Both his freighter and Orca probably had zero tank and were fitted with nothing but cargo expanders and/or astronomic mods.
Ack you beat me to the most obvious. Also, if they started harassing you afterwards, you probably tossed them some tears, they came back begging for moar.

This point you can live and learn, or rage-quit Straight

What is best about the system is that there is no real game mechanic to hide behind here. So many games I've seen lots of morons hide behind the system and technically grief people (SKing, death trains, bad mouthing etc whatever). Can still do that here (in ways), but then you can shoot them in the face in return. Then shoot them in the face again tomorrow. But if you whine about it, well they know you prolly are just going to rage-quit at some point anyway.

I see OoPE in the cards for this thread.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Jenshae Chiroptera
#16 - 2015-06-21 12:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
These CODE alts are really going over the top with their "roleplaying"

- scouts
- web alts
- freighter alliances like Red Frog.
- keeping your eggs in more than one basket.
- knowing the ganker corps and alliances in known ganking trade route systems.
- closer trade hub

So many ways to do things better.
How did you take all the time to learn to fly that ship but not know any of these things?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-06-21 12:42:10 UTC
Sctosman has never gave up! Stand up from your knees take the dirt off your cloths take the tears off your face and keep moving.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Pixie Tickle
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2015-06-21 12:45:50 UTC
Quote:
There was an issue with parsing this post's Babycode.
Livonia Velorea
The Fiendish Pixies
#19 - 2015-06-21 13:04:17 UTC
I'm confused...

"Here at Circling Skies we specialize in mining, exploration and mission running."

If you were any good at missioning you really wouldn't be mining and if you are any good at exploration, chances are you wouldn't want to run missions. Any avid explorer will make several billion each week, for a group/corp to claim it something they specialize in, you should likely be making even more. The 2 billion loss shouldn't be that bad a blow really, even for 2 or 3 people running missions it's barely a week worth of lvl 4's.

I pew you too! <3

Cyborg Girl86
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-06-21 13:08:23 UTC
I'm glad everyone here feels the same way I do.

Simply put, flying in an untanked freighter, WITH NO F***ING INSURANCE, carrying valuable cargo makes that person look like this

I even bolded, underlined and italicized the important things you did wrong cause I'm feeling generous.
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