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Dev blog: Feedback on the new Overview Brackets

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GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#101 - 2015-06-19 00:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Ok, so before you said that, did you spend countless hours and evenings testing and providing objective feedback or developing improved alternatives over the last several months? And after you spent those many many hours doing CCP's work to have them utterly ignore it and release with full abandon only to say you were wrong?


Those guys are developpers this is their job.
They are paid for doing what they do.
They work while you play.

Who are you to even make the statement that your work worth more than theirs ?
Seriously.
Who the hell are you to just say "Nope, your icones are ****, you should do this, that and this."

They've come with a product of a reflexion and time, and you just think that whatever work you did is better ?
You truely believe that whith all what they came up with, they will just come back and redo the icones ?

What the ****.
Wake up spoiled kids.
Wake the hell up.

Improving the current icones : yes.
Goin back in time, or completly re-do the icones : nope.


I'm not quite sure why you're so triggered by this. Smile

While insults can never be excused, the amount of feedback that went out during the testing phase, and subsequently ignored plus this blog can & does blow off lids for the right reasons.

The premise for the system is logically valid, but what if the chosen concept style is not?

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#102 - 2015-06-19 00:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Im sorry but the current icons cant be improved. Icons by their very nature are supposed to be useful at a glance. Any decent icon system, is simple by design. To avoid information overload, you want a limited number of icons that only convey important information. CCP has decided to slap icons on everything and in their wisdom have decided to make it so that they are tiny and all basically similar to each other. The important information is lost is a sea of clutter. On the other hand, the old icons worked almost perfectly, giving you the exact information you needed to fly well - relative ship size, whether the ship was friend/foe, and npc or player. And get off your fanboi highhorse. CCP screwed the pooch on this one.


Don't be sorry, i am for you.

Explain why the icones are not giving a clear info to you as they do to me ?
And actually i have more information than before.
I can see AT A GLANCE if i'm dealing with a frig or a dessy, a Cruiser or a BC or a BS.

The only issue i see is what they are talkin about in this very DevBlog :
- drones / frigates distinction
- NPCs / Players distinction
- Scaling

Improvements could be :
- add colors just like Gates or Station with Autopilot.
- same as above but to the whole line, not only the icone.
- re-place the standing / corp / alliance / etc icones
- true RGB picker to set customed standings (condition to color like Autopilot)
- separate the shape from the filled interior
- and why not add colors to the shape and/or interior
- just like the new icone set for UI and the glowing thing, put some on overview to enhance the "Technological" sensation like Altrue mentioned earlier : http://i.gyazo.com/5f3de8af2f98bbf6c6b02af7916943ff.png
- The Above could stand as a background option for Overview settings to standing / states
etc..etc..etc..
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#103 - 2015-06-19 00:37:41 UTC
GankYou wrote:
The premise for the system is logically valid, but what if the chosen concept style is not?


Because each and every individual would have his own "valid concept style" ? Roll
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#104 - 2015-06-19 00:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Cleanse Serce wrote:
GankYou wrote:
The premise for the system is logically valid, but what if the chosen concept style is not?


Because each and every individual would have his own "valid concept style" ? Roll


That is not the case.

There are only so many angles you can have in a geometric shape - how you employ this fact is upto the artist, of course.

http://www.fontscape.com/pictures/fontfont/Dingbats2BasicForms.gif - Anything from this three-line basic set would be ten times more informative than the chevron model.

They could have chosed to make Frigates & Destroyers Upward Triangles, Cruisers & Battlecruisers - Downward Triangles, and battleships a rhombus. You know, like the public Men & Women bathroom signs. Blink

I don't see the eternal Hex-, or Pentagon in there, either.

The best approach would have been to first select the best-possible shapes for the spaceships, since we encounter and deal with them more than with anything else, and seeing as our very lives depend on that, and then devise some chevrons for the miscellanea.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#105 - 2015-06-19 00:44:59 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Those guys are developpers this is their job.
They are paid for doing what they do.
They work while you play.
Yeah, because spending 3 hours after I get home from work patching sisi, organizing and documenting new icon changes and how they interact with each other. As well as running them through a gambit of use case scenarios and putting those scenarios together for the sole purpose of testing a new feature and providing objective feedback sure sounds and awful lot like playing and having fun to me... esp repeat that a couple times a week and every other weekend.

Cleanse Serce wrote:
Who the hell are you to just say "Nope, your icones are ****, you should do this, that and this."
lol, I never did say that, I said they were poorly implemented and needed major improvements based on countless suggestions myself and many others offered through the various iterations of the feedback threads, which were completely ignored.

Please stop being a CCP fanboy and start being a positive contributor.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#106 - 2015-06-19 00:46:23 UTC
Is there a way to mod this shite somehow?

Where do they keep the file for icons and in what format? EULA be damned, maybe i can rip the file open and physically change the pixels to normal icons..
Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#107 - 2015-06-19 00:50:12 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Ok, so before you said that, did you spend countless hours and evenings testing and providing objective feedback or developing improved alternatives over the last several months? And after you spent those many many hours doing CCP's work to have them utterly ignore it and release with full abandon only to say you were wrong?


Those guys are developpers this is their job.
They are paid for doing what they do.
They work while you play.

Who are you to even make the statement that your work worth more than theirs ?
Seriously.
Who the hell are you to just say "Nope, your icones are ****, you should do this, that and this."

They've come with a product of a reflexion and time, and you just think that whatever work you did is better ?
You truely believe that whith all what they came up with, they will just come back and redo the icones ?

What the ****.
Wake up spoiled kids.
Wake the hell up.

Improving the current icones : yes.
Goin back in time, or completly re-do the icones : nope.


All I saw was terrible spelling and a whole lot of white stuff - but I can't tell if it's a knight, or just salt. Probably both.

And FYI - here in the real world, just because someone gets paid to do something, doesn't mean the end product is fantastic or even palatable. Even at CCP, shockingly - Incarna would like a word with you.
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#108 - 2015-06-19 00:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Everyone, for one reason or another. You dont want to run into a gate with 5 drifters on it. You dont want to gas and miss sleepers spawning.

And you, good sir, should stop posting and embarrassing yourself further. Go re-read the linked technical analysis, looks like you havent picked up anything from it.


Ok so RED ICONES are not different enough for you to distinguish from an EMPTY SHAPE.
Yeah, i should stop embarassing myself, clearly. Roll

I thought you were talkin about Concord and Navy icones not Missions or Encounter NPCs, this is even more laughable.

Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
All I saw was terrible spelling and a whole lot of white stuff - but I can't tell if it's a knight, or just salt. Probably both.

And FYI - here in the real world, just because someone gets paid to do something, doesn't mean the end product is fantastic or even palatable. Even at CCP, shockingly - Incarna would like a word with you.


I'm sorry i'm not a english born speaker, and my english sometimes can be terrible to read.
But thank god this language is not hard to be readable with.

You're right, just because someone gets paid doesn't mean his work is fantastic.
And i never said it was.

And i was waiting for the whole Incarna thing.
Every now and then, when you're pissed with a change from CCP, you throw that right on their face.
Like some kind of threat.
Yep, tipical kid behaviour.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#109 - 2015-06-19 00:55:07 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Everyone, for one reason or another. You dont want to run into a gate with 5 drifters on it. You dont want to gas and miss sleepers spawning.

And you, good sir, should stop posting and embarrassing yourself further. Go re-read the linked technical analysis, looks like you havent picked up anything from it.


Ok so RED ICONES are not different enough for you to distinguish from an EMPTY SHAPE.
Yeah, i should stop embarassing myself, clearly. Roll

I thought you were talkin about Concord and Navy icones not Missions or Encounter NPCs, this is even more laughable.


OK, go laugh somewhere else then, preferably while working on your spelling, while the grownups who understand the gravity of the fiasco try to grapple with the consequences.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#110 - 2015-06-19 01:02:14 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/RYBmrkG.png - Two minutes in Paint. Smile

Now you may add chevrons to distinguish between Frigs & Destroyers, and Cruisers & BCs. You can even have so much detail as to denote tech, or even sub-class level like Recon ships.

All else is of little relevance, until the issue of combat spaceship icons is resolved.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#111 - 2015-06-19 01:18:22 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Everyone, for one reason or another. You dont want to run into a gate with 5 drifters on it. You dont want to gas and miss sleepers spawning.

And you, good sir, should stop posting and embarrassing yourself further. Go re-read the linked technical analysis, looks like you havent picked up anything from it.


Ok so RED ICONES are not different enough for you to distinguish from an EMPTY SHAPE.
Yeah, i should stop embarassing myself, clearly. Roll

I thought you were talkin about Concord and Navy icones not Missions or Encounter NPCs, this is even more laughable.

Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
All I saw was terrible spelling and a whole lot of white stuff - but I can't tell if it's a knight, or just salt. Probably both.

And FYI - here in the real world, just because someone gets paid to do something, doesn't mean the end product is fantastic or even palatable. Even at CCP, shockingly - Incarna would like a word with you.


I'm sorry i'm not a english born speaker, and my english sometimes can be terrible to read.
But thank god this language is not hard to be readable with.

You're right, just because someone gets paid doesn't mean his work is fantastic.
And i never said it was.

And i was waiting for the whole Incarna thing.
Every now and then, when you're pissed with a change from CCP, you throw that right on their face.
Like some kind of threat.
Yep, tipical kid behaviour.


Sometimes they need it thrown in their faces - like when they start in with the mass disregard of their players.

You can fanboi all you want, and keep telling the rest of us how nice the view is from way up there on your high horse. When you finally put your visor up, you'll see us down here shooting statues.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#112 - 2015-06-19 01:19:50 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Where do they keep the file for icons and in what format?

If you want to take a closer look at the amazing new high-definition PNG icons (maybe to admire them) (and not for any nefarious awful reason like modifying the client) (I can't condone that) you should be able to find the hexadecimal filenames belonging to each icon in the shared cache by searching for "/ui/texture/shared/brackets" in resfileindex.txt .
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#113 - 2015-06-19 01:20:02 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Im sorry but the current icons cant be improved. Icons by their very nature are supposed to be useful at a glance. Any decent icon system, is simple by design. To avoid information overload, you want a limited number of icons that only convey important information. CCP has decided to slap icons on everything and in their wisdom have decided to make it so that they are tiny and all basically similar to each other. The important information is lost is a sea of clutter. On the other hand, the old icons worked almost perfectly, giving you the exact information you needed to fly well - relative ship size, whether the ship was friend/foe, and npc or player. And get off your fanboi highhorse. CCP screwed the pooch on this one.


Don't be sorry, i am for you.

Explain why the icones are not giving a clear info to you as they do to me ?
And actually i have more information than before.
I can see AT A GLANCE if i'm dealing with a frig or a dessy, a Cruiser or a BC or a BS.

The only issue i see is what they are talkin about in this very DevBlog :
- drones / frigates distinction
- NPCs / Players distinction
- Scaling

Improvements could be :
- add colors just like Gates or Station with Autopilot.
- same as above but to the whole line, not only the icone.
- re-place the standing / corp / alliance / etc icones
- true RGB picker to set customed standings (condition to color like Autopilot)
- separate the shape from the filled interior
- and why not add colors to the shape and/or interior
- just like the new icone set for UI and the glowing thing, put some on overview to enhance the "Technological" sensation like Altrue mentioned earlier : http://i.gyazo.com/5f3de8af2f98bbf6c6b02af7916943ff.png
- The Above could stand as a background option for Overview settings to standing / states
etc..etc..etc..


maybe your eyes are better then mine. maybe you have a dev sized monitor. But before this change I could tell a frig from a dessy at a glance. How you say? Well I have something called the type column. Apparently you couldnt figure out how to use it. Now I got a big blob of color on the screen which everything obscures everything else. Undocking in Jita is awful. Combat is even worse. God forbid drones are used `because then all that is visible is a swirling mass. The new sun icon is a prime example of how screwed up the new icons are. In the old days it was easy to tell what was the sun because it was a bright solid circle. Now its a small vague open circle with rays, but the sun is so small that the rays are barely visible, so the sun basically looks like every other open circle, e.g. the planets. So we lost an easy to see simple icon for the sun in favor of a much fancier icon that looks nice but is substantially less useful. And of course the list goes on. For instance, we got some ships being squashed half circles and others being slightly smaller squashed half circles, how are you supposed to tell them apart at a glance.

In short, while the icons may work for you, your clearly in a minority. CCP should just give a switch so those that want to use the icons can and while those who dont can go back to playing the game. Then after the switch you and those one or two other guys can have great fun playing with your new icons and patting ccp on the back for another great improvement. I bet you thought captain quarters and industry teams were just neato cool too.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#114 - 2015-06-19 01:22:45 UTC
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
You can fanboi all you want, and keep telling the rest of us how nice the view is from way up there on your high horse. When you finally put your visor up, you'll see us down here shooting statues.


For icone set ?
I strongly doubt it.
I'm still waiting haters shooting statues from jump fatigue changes.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#115 - 2015-06-19 01:25:17 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:

I'm still waiting haters shooting statues...


No need to be mean in dire times like these. It could approach a situation when there's no one left to do so. What?

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#116 - 2015-06-19 01:26:16 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
You can fanboi all you want, and keep telling the rest of us how nice the view is from way up there on your high horse. When you finally put your visor up, you'll see us down here shooting statues.


For icone set ?
I strongly doubt it.
I'm still waiting haters shooting statues from jump fatigue changes.


Then you're obviously a bit slow if you think it's still all about the icons at this point.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#117 - 2015-06-19 01:40:06 UTC
GankYou wrote:
No need to be mean in dire times like these. It could approach a situation when there's no one left to do so. What?

First they came for the ship spinners, and I did not shoot the statue because I was not a ship spinner…
Langbaobao
Tr0pa de elite.
#118 - 2015-06-19 01:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Langbaobao
TBH I find the new icons annoying and a needless over complication of something that was working ok, however I doubt you will listen to those who are asking for a return to old icons, either directly or via a button that can toggle between old and new icons.

However tbh the biggest annoyance for me is the fact that I can't differentiate at a glance between rats on a gate and actual player ships in space. Before it was simple: crosses are NPCs, squares are players, ergo you point them and shoot them. Now I have to fight with the gazillion of different icons which I struggle distinguishing between NPC and players. So far it hasn't brought about a ship loss but one of these days it will for sure. I will not mention drone icons which are also annoying. There are so many different drone icons that it becomes impossible to distinguish them at a glance from ships. This s really annoying. I dunno, maybe reducing icon size for drones would reduce this annoyance, but tbh the simplest solution would be to have only one type of icon for all drones like we had before. Before you knew, x=drone and not some ship. I can judge easily what type of drones are in space by how fast they move (or not move), I don't really need 10 different icons for all the different types of drones. Alltogether I would say the biggest complaint I have is that it's not easy to distinguish between ships (the really important thing) and NPCs+drones at a glance and this is highly frustrating.

I know you guys went into this with the best intentions, but unfortunately I have to say that you've brought about an unnecessary complexity in the icon system. I don't blame you, I blame one well known blogger who advocated this change and fueled the hype. He probably infected you with the hype at the last fanfest (I remember seeing him there) and you said, why not? Still, there's no point crying over spoiled milk. Knowing how CCP functions, I doubt we can really go back that easily. This is a big change to the UI and such big changes are difficult to revert. We will probably have to end up living with it but you could at least reduce the complexity of the new system and hopefully we'll adapt with time. Granted, I'd love if there could be a toggle that allowed me to turn back to square brackets for player ships but I am not holding my breath. Would be nice if I was wrong...

TL;DR Too many different icons, plz reduce. Also square icons for all player ships and add chevrons in the bottom right of the square.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#119 - 2015-06-19 01:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
beakerax wrote:
GankYou wrote:
No need to be mean in dire times like these. It could approach a situation when there's no one left to do so. What?

First they came for the ship spinners, and I did not shoot the statue because I was not a ship spinner…


Although, there was no statue-shooting because of Phoebe due to the fact that it needed to happen, as batphone had become the cause for waning player activity numbers by that time, in my opinion.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2015-06-19 01:56:13 UTC
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
You can fanboi all you want, and keep telling the rest of us how nice the view is from way up there on your high horse. When you finally put your visor up, you'll see us down here shooting statues.


For icone set ?
I strongly doubt it.
I'm still waiting haters shooting statues from jump fatigue changes.


Then you're obviously a bit slow if you think it's still all about the icons at this point.


Hes not slow, hes just a troll, he gets off this. It was explained to him back on page 3 what this is about. Just ignore him, maybe he will go away into general discussion and sperg there.