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[Duality] Sovereignty Playtest Competition

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Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#321 - 2015-06-26 03:58:29 UTC
yeah i just realised that you guys are complaining about the fact that capture times are not affected by cycle times, apart from initial warm up cycle
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#322 - 2015-06-26 06:46:51 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
ALL of it should be five times longer.

So you're saying not just the cycle time but also the actual capture time then? Gotcha.

Also, ignore my terrible 3AM math above, cycle time is ofc 600 s and nothing else.
DNLeviathan
Blue Canary
Watch This
#323 - 2015-06-26 07:07:34 UTC
why not just make the entosis links non fittable to caps? even with the extended capture time i can guarentee that people will use caps to entosis if they are desperate to capture a system.
Dreamer Targaryen
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#324 - 2015-06-26 08:57:52 UTC
Huh, I was under the impression that a capital-ship was ment to capture 5x slower than a "normal" ship. If it really only effects the cycle-time, then this should be indeed corrected.

On a related note: From my understanding, the 5x penalty-multiplier is a compensation for capital ships being ecm-immune (dreads: siege; carrier: triage; supers: in general), so the only counter would be to kill them. Why don't have marauders, who have the same capability (bastion) a similar penalty?
Salem Kane
Project Pendragon
#325 - 2015-06-26 08:58:08 UTC
You should keep in mind that this is a drawback, as also a minor plus for the Capital.
The Capital is pinned down for a 10min cycle, but in return, it can run 10min cycles for 1 stront, where smal ships would need 5 stront with thier 2min cycles, which makes a capital more fitting for nodes with high defence multipliers.

What i personally find more anoying, that the cycle runs on when a node is captured. If you run a capital, and you capture the node at 5% on the next cycle, you have to stay around for another 95% = 9 1/2 minutes+1min aggro timer for jumpdrives.

I personally would find it more fitting, to reset the cycle with the capture of a node, or if the cycle is below 50% on capture.

Just my Five cent.
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#326 - 2015-06-26 09:17:27 UTC
Salem Kane wrote:

What i personally find more anoying, that the cycle runs on when a node is captured. If you run a capital, and you capture the node at 5% on the next cycle, you have to stay around for another 95% = 9 1/2 minutes+1min aggro timer for jumpdrives.
.

that's a good thing though, cause it increases the risk for capitals, discouraging their use (hopefully)
Salem Kane
Project Pendragon
#327 - 2015-06-26 09:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Salem Kane
Warmeister wrote:
Salem Kane wrote:

What i personally find more anoying, that the cycle runs on when a node is captured. If you run a capital, and you capture the node at 5% on the next cycle, you have to stay around for another 95% = 9 1/2 minutes+1min aggro timer for jumpdrives.
.

that's a good thing though, cause it increases the risk for capitals, discouraging their use (hopefully)



Yes, but if people really want caps to also have a 5x progress multiplier, you won't see them cap at all.
Just tryhard carrier blobs defending the one ship capturing.
But you're right, this is a good risk/use balance, keeping a cap pinned for 10mins all the time, but CCP shouldn't touch the capture progress on capitals.

PS.: Totally capturing nodes in a carrier atm.. and F5 dosn't update this site.. but deactivated my entosis link.. rekt.
BlitZ Kotare
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#328 - 2015-06-26 10:38:01 UTC
The entosis module also has a 'cool down' cycle much like going red on a cyno, triage or siege module. So while the node may be won in ~8 minutes faster than a subcap could have done it using a T2 entosis link, the capital ship is stuck there for up to another 10min after that waiting for the module to cycle off completely. In practice, due to server ticks, this means it takes a capital ship ~30 minutes to do what a T2 entosis link subcap can do in 12, because the "cooldown" doesn't start until the node captures, and the node captures at EXACTLY 10 minutes, assuming it was only a 10min node. Of course, this would be even longer if you're attacking something.

To be honest I feel like the 10 minute cycle time on a T2 entosis link is fine, it's 5 minutes longer than a normal triage cycle and puts an unsupported capital ship, which can't receive any friendly support at all, in ongoing mortal danger. Despite how OP this might look on Duality, anyone who uses unsupported triage carriers as entosis ships on TQ is going to get their **** stomped on.

Also please keep in mind we're not talking about one node here, or two, but 5 or more at at time, per sov object that has come out of reinforced. We've seen systems with 50+ nodes in them at once, and that's just on Duality. That's a lot of triage carriers even for PL to field at once, let alone Podunk Alliance. And you have to find some way to defend all of them, spread out around a constellation at the same time. If you attack one and they respond by jumping stuff in? Move on to the next one, there's plenty of multi-billion isk triage carriers to kill (in our fictional scenario where someone tries to capture all the nodes with triage carriers).
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#329 - 2015-06-26 10:48:14 UTC
Like BlitZ mentions, the primary purpose of the longer cycle time is to force the capital ship into longer periods of vulnerability (where it cannot be repped, warp or jump) to compensate for their EHP. The cooldown after capturing is also a big deal when we're talking about fights over multiple nodes.

We do expect the 5x cycle time multiplier to be a significant penalty for the system on TQ, just as it is for station services on TQ now. However if capitals turn out to be a problem, it's trivial for us to adjust that cycle time penalty in a minor point release.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#330 - 2015-06-26 10:48:41 UTC
New timers list:
Exit Time    Solar System    Structure    Owning Alliance    Defense Multiplier
Ongoing    Shintaht    IHub    Fidelas Constans    3.5
Ongoing    Y-MPWL    Station    Fidelas Constans    3.2
Ongoing    Y-MPWL    TCU    Fidelas Constans    3.2
Ongoing    H6-CX8    IHub    Fidelas Constans    5.6
Ongoing    Shintaht    TCU    Fidelas Constans    3.5
Ongoing    Y-MPWL    IHub    Fidelas Constans    3.2
Ongoing    Shintaht    Station Freeport    Freeport    3.5
Ongoing    D61A-G    Station Freeport    Freeport    2
Ongoing    F-YH5B    TCU    Suddenly Spaceships.    6
Ongoing    S25C-K    Station    Praetorian Directorate    3.8
Ongoing    18XA-C    IHub    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    1
Ongoing    8P9-BM    Station    Suddenly Spaceships.    3.9
Ongoing    F-YH5B    IHub    Suddenly Spaceships.    6
Ongoing    H-GKI6    IHub    Suddenly Spaceships.    3.4
Ongoing    18XA-C    Station    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    2.2
Ongoing    D-6WS1    IHub    Brave Collective    2.2
Ongoing    D61A-G    IHub    Spectre Fleet Alliance    1.6
Ongoing    Z-RFE3    Station    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    3.3
Ongoing    0B-HLZ    IHub    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    3.7
Ongoing    0B-HLZ    TCU    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    3.7
Ongoing    I-MGAB    IHub    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    5.2
Ongoing    I-MGAB    Station    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    5.2
Ongoing    I-MGAB    TCU    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    5.2
Ongoing    G-5EN2    TCU    Brave Collective    3.4
Ongoing    3KB-J0    TCU    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    4.3
Ongoing    3KB-J0    IHub    I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth    4.3
Ongoing    G-5EN2    IHub    Brave Collective    3.4
Ongoing    3KB-J0    Station Freeport    Freeport    4.3
2015.06.26 12:29    3D-CQU    Station Freeport    Freeport    2.7
2015.06.26 21:03    D61A-G    TCU    Spectre Fleet Alliance    1.6
2015.06.26 23:11    IS-R7P    Station Freeport    Freeport    6
2015.06.27 00:44    YWS0-Z    TCU    Brave Collective    3.7
2015.06.27 03:12    SI-I89    Station Freeport    Freeport    4.4
2015.06.27 07:58    UL-7I8    Station Freeport    Freeport    2.8
2015.06.27 09:14    ERVK-P    Station Freeport    Freeport    3.4

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#331 - 2015-06-26 11:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Warmeister
so many ongoing timers
someone's been slacking off

Fozzie, any ETA on the fix for defence multipliers applying to defender and freeported stations? it's kinda hard to do 20 nodes with a 6x defense multiplier
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#332 - 2015-06-26 11:22:54 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
so many ongoing timers
someone's been slacking off

Fozzie, any ETA on the fix for defence multipliers applying to defender and freeported stations? it's kinda hard to do 20 nodes with a 6x defense multiplier

It's fixed internally we're just running a smoketest on the new build before deploying it to Duality.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#333 - 2015-06-26 11:39:47 UTC
Sorry for the wait on the fix folks, a few large behind the scene changes have been implemented in the last day and we want to make sure the build is nice and stable for a weekend of war :)

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

Dreamer Targaryen
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#334 - 2015-06-26 11:48:20 UTC
BlitZ Kotare wrote:
In practice, due to server ticks, this means it takes a capital ship ~30 minutes to do what a T2 entosis link subcap can do in 12, because the "cooldown" doesn't start until the node captures, and the node captures at EXACTLY 10 minutes, assuming it was only a 10min node. Of course, this would be even longer if you're attacking something.

After capturing 50+ 10min-nodes, I never had the case, where the module did not run out at a similar time (= a few (5?) seconds after) as the node was captured. So if you are not interrupted or the multiplier was not 1, I don't see, how it should ever take 30 minutes.
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#335 - 2015-06-26 12:02:21 UTC
it will depend on the indexes, but given that the base capture time of objects is close to 10 mins it will more often end cycle close to capping the node, rather than not
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#336 - 2015-06-26 12:17:48 UTC
An unmodified and uncontested node should never stretch into an extra cycle for the 10 minute and 5 minute links, as the "10 minute" base capture time on the nodes is actually 9 minutes and 55 seconds now to provide a buffer for server ticks.

However once activity multipliers or other players start showing up, things change significantly.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
BlitZ Kotare
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#337 - 2015-06-26 12:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: BlitZ Kotare
CCP Fozzie wrote:
An unmodified and uncontested node should never stretch into an extra cycle for the 10 minute and 5 minute links, as the "10 minute" base capture time on the nodes is actually 9 minutes and 55 seconds now to provide a buffer for server ticks.

However once activity multipliers or other players start showing up, things change significantly.


Oh. That must be new? I was using a Rorq and an Archon to capture some nodes on Duality to test out links on capitals earlier in the test. Almost every time (again, depending on ticks) I was stuck there for an extra 10min cycle even for 10min defensive nodes. So the 9min55s change might be in response to my earlier post in the thread questioning the length of cycle times post-node-save and such? Either way I approve, a very fair change IMO.

This means that, for defensive node saves, you're looking at 20min of "stuck" time for a capitals (assuming zero attacker activity), for offensive use you're looking at a bare minimum of 20min, upwards to... I guess 70? At a 6x multiplier it would take you 10min to warm up and 60min on target to capture that node, assuming a T2 entosis link of course.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#338 - 2015-06-26 13:54:45 UTC
BlitZ Kotare wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
An unmodified and uncontested node should never stretch into an extra cycle for the 10 minute and 5 minute links, as the "10 minute" base capture time on the nodes is actually 9 minutes and 55 seconds now to provide a buffer for server ticks.

However once activity multipliers or other players start showing up, things change significantly.


Oh. That must be new? I was using a Rorq and an Archon to capture some nodes on Duality to test out links on capitals earlier in the test. Almost every time (again, depending on ticks) I was stuck there for an extra 10min cycle even for 10min defensive nodes. So the 9min55s change might be in response to my earlier post in the thread questioning the length of cycle times post-node-save and such? Either way I approve, a very fair change IMO.

This means that, for defensive node saves, you're looking at 20min of "stuck" time for a capitals (assuming zero attacker activity), for offensive use you're looking at a bare minimum of 20min, upwards to... I guess 70? At a 6x multiplier it would take you 10min to warm up and 60min on target to capture that node, assuming a T2 entosis link of course.

Yeah we implemented this tweak last week thanks to the feedback so far. Thanks!

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#339 - 2015-06-26 17:41:43 UTC
BlitZ Kotare wrote:
The entosis module also has a 'cool down' cycle much like going red on a cyno, triage or siege module. So while the node may be won in ~8 minutes faster than a subcap could have done it using a T2 entosis link, the capital ship is stuck there for up to another 10min after that waiting for the module to cycle off completely. In practice, due to server ticks, this means it takes a capital ship ~30 minutes to do what a T2 entosis link subcap can do in 12, because the "cooldown" doesn't start until the node captures, and the node captures at EXACTLY 10 minutes, assuming it was only a 10min node. Of course, this would be even longer if you're attacking something.

To be honest I feel like the 10 minute cycle time on a T2 entosis link is fine, it's 5 minutes longer than a normal triage cycle and puts an unsupported capital ship, which can't receive any friendly support at all, in ongoing mortal danger. Despite how OP this might look on Duality, anyone who uses unsupported triage carriers as entosis ships on TQ is going to get their **** stomped on.

Also please keep in mind we're not talking about one node here, or two, but 5 or more at at time, per sov object that has come out of reinforced. We've seen systems with 50+ nodes in them at once, and that's just on Duality. That's a lot of triage carriers even for PL to field at once, let alone Podunk Alliance. And you have to find some way to defend all of them, spread out around a constellation at the same time. If you attack one and they respond by jumping stuff in? Move on to the next one, there's plenty of multi-billion isk triage carriers to kill (in our fictional scenario where someone tries to capture all the nodes with triage carriers).

I think as well, the fact we're all basically having a knife fight in a phone box, makes things appear 'worse' than it would be in reality on TQ - no one has had to really worry about jump ranges/fatigue so far in this test.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#340 - 2015-06-26 18:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Gabriel Karade wrote:
BlitZ Kotare wrote:
The entosis module also has a 'cool down' cycle much like going red on a cyno, triage or siege module. So while the node may be won in ~8 minutes faster than a subcap could have done it using a T2 entosis link, the capital ship is stuck there for up to another 10min after that waiting for the module to cycle off completely. In practice, due to server ticks, this means it takes a capital ship ~30 minutes to do what a T2 entosis link subcap can do in 12, because the "cooldown" doesn't start until the node captures, and the node captures at EXACTLY 10 minutes, assuming it was only a 10min node. Of course, this would be even longer if you're attacking something.

To be honest I feel like the 10 minute cycle time on a T2 entosis link is fine, it's 5 minutes longer than a normal triage cycle and puts an unsupported capital ship, which can't receive any friendly support at all, in ongoing mortal danger. Despite how OP this might look on Duality, anyone who uses unsupported triage carriers as entosis ships on TQ is going to get their **** stomped on.

Also please keep in mind we're not talking about one node here, or two, but 5 or more at at time, per sov object that has come out of reinforced. We've seen systems with 50+ nodes in them at once, and that's just on Duality. That's a lot of triage carriers even for PL to field at once, let alone Podunk Alliance. And you have to find some way to defend all of them, spread out around a constellation at the same time. If you attack one and they respond by jumping stuff in? Move on to the next one, there's plenty of multi-billion isk triage carriers to kill (in our fictional scenario where someone tries to capture all the nodes with triage carriers).

I think as well, the fact we're all basically having a knife fight in a phone box, makes things appear 'worse' than it would be in reality on TQ - no one has had to really worry about jump ranges/fatigue so far in this test.

People like blitz aren't going to try and screw over PL but if you pay close attention you'll notice he's using an archon and a rorq for a necrosis platform. That should scream warning to ccp and yet for some reason fozzie is just like eh whatever. Considering how long we've been stuck with the broken ishtar that they just won't fix after a year or more I have little faith in the We'll Adjust It Later response. I'm not sure if they have noticed but the games population is on actual danger at this point and if they screw this up it'll likely not recover.

How hard is it to just err on the side of caution for once when it comes to a ship class that's always given them problems. But whatever, they're blowing it off and the proof that they were warned how bad it would be is right here in print

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.