Player Features and Ideas Discussion

@deltor nah mate your just as all over as a frog in blender and appear to have little real understanding of the game. Once again, you are truly not worth my spending effort trying to explain it. Cya bro

I'm not against also limiting targeting commands to be squad based.

I think this would end up being more OP than you think.
The remote resists you're suggesting are as powerful as Estamel resist modules on a shield boat.
On a Basilisk, the resist profile with estamel modules (1em and 2 invuln) you get a resist profile of 85.5/94.3/91.5/85.9.... em/th/kn/exp...
With a large ASB, the basi will get 976 EHP/s shield boost, with one booster.
So, we'll assume the remote resist mods have the same fitting requirements as remote shield boosters.
This would mean it could fit 5 remote S95a remotes, and a remote E95c, and be cap stable.

Here is the fit.

lows
co-processor II
Power Diagnostic II

Mids
50mn Cold gas
ECCM - Grav II
ECCM - Grav II
Large ASB
Large ASB

Highs
E95c remote cap
S95a remote EM
S95a remote invuln
S95a remote invuln
S95a remote shield amp
S95a remote shield amp

Rigs
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

With this fit, you have an amazing 94.9 sensor strength and are cap stable with the 1 cap transport at 73% assuming lvl 5 skills.
With just one remote shield amp pointed at this ship (assuming it has the same bonus as estamel shield boost amp, as with resist modules) it jumps from 976 EHP/s to 1396 EHP/s...With a second remote shield boost amp, it goes up to 2414 EHP/s!!!!! That's 786 every 4 seconds from a large ASB... That's 28.4% of it's shields every 4 seconds.
With all 5 remote reps pointed at it (from another basi) it would be 3662 EHP/s... More EHP/s, but a much more restricted fit, with no where near the sensor strength, and that's with estamel resist modules, which are quite expensive... In comparison, with t2 resist mods, it only has 1977 EHP/s... That's less than your suggestion, and would be a relatively similar isk fitting cost.

Now, lets say the Basi's keep the resist mods pointed at themselves, and turtle up with their fleet.
Lets use a Raven, as a fleet member.

The Raven can load up on DPS, and get close to 1k dps with RHMLs... (fury missiles).
It would have 1603 EHP/s with a t2 therm rig, 1-T2 em module, 3 invuln T2 and an XL ASB(2 on the ship).
It then has 2 free mid slots. In comparison, with all 5 remote shield reps pointed at it, with the same resist layout, it gets 1558 EHP/s..
Now, if the logi were to point the remote resist and remote amp mods at it (with only the t2 therm rig fitted to the ship), it would get an INSANE 4963 EHP/s!!!!!


However, as I've stated, you don't even need to remove the resist modules from the other basilisk (assuming their are two), as with just an XL ASB you're already getting more effective EHP/s than you were with remote reps.
Remember, you can also fit Duel ASB.


TBH, this makes logi (especially turtle meta) more powerful than they are now.
The only thing this would nerf is the Alliance tournament, though I would argue that duel frig Logi would become more powerful...

While the doubleXL-ASB Raven seems to repair a vast amount of EHP with that basilisk support, it has few raw hp and his fit is therefore very vulnerable to alpha.
Additionaly take balanced stacking penalties for remote assists in account, then its even more vulnerable.
And suddenly you have an interesting strategy of how to beat it: Artillery! .... or maybe even more tank and see whose cap boosters run out first .)
(No more +1 Logi.) Its Rock paper Scissors again! yay :)

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You might then want to think about mixing the raven/basilisk fit with some Shield Extenders or you will die to switched fire quickly.
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That brings me to additional questions:
Would an activation delay help to balance these remote-resists?
Would it be interesting if those hardeners increase in power the longer they remain on one target? (this is kind of silly thou)
What about a "reactive" remote armor hardener?
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Sidenote: I already see the deimos becoming a viable fleetmeta again.

I'm not saying it isn't, but you also know from experience that logi usually has its own squads so they can warp around as needed. There are also no 'target bro needs shield' broadcasts so logi can broadcast their Squad mates to each other so the logi in the other squads can rep as well but the 'target is so and so' broadcast is there so squad commanders can very easily copy the broadcast to there squad. The broadcast range would almost certainly need to be extended to watch list then, that logi Bros and SC'S and WC'S could copy broadcasts along. A 'bro needs reps' broadcast would also likely need added. Even then that still seems like an unfair edge to the dps side.

I appreciate all the feedback!

From what I'm hearing, folks don't like the idea of increasing complexity for the logi pilots (I can agree on this one) and that adding to local tank potential via resists doesn't increase survivability in big fleets, and could certainly compromise small fleet life.

I did get some positive feedback about the idea of the remote boost amp and nano accel. (to increase local rep potential), so how about changing the idea around:

Instead of local RESISTANCE amps, we still get rid of the remote booster and remote armor repper, but add in the remote boost amp/nano accel and also add in a remote shield EXTENDER and remote "PLATING" modules. Im thinking and HP boost equal to the comparable local Shield extender/armor plate, meaning appropriate sized modules for the current ships.

In this case, local resists are managed by the pilot, local reps are managed by the pilot, and EHP/repping is assisted by the logi pilot.

In this case, base Shield/Armor HP is increased by the remote module with a modest stacking penalty, and local tank is improved via the amp/nano mod. This keeps resists from becoming insane, allows logi to improve survivability in all fleet sizes, maintains the need for capacitor and puts a new twist. It also allows the ship to be destroyed if DPS stays on long enough and the local rep can't keep up. It also creates the chance for some different doctrines that min/max local tank and buffer and could maybe free up slots for different ewar/anti-ewar.

I'm not sure how this would scale in the case of capital ships, as their HP is already on the extreme side, but its worth a discussion.

Im also supposing, that there would need to be some kind of coding that when the buffer mods are turned off, the % of current/total HP would need to be maintained to avoid some kind of negative HP situation, but that (hopefully?) a simple piece of coding.

The problem I see with the idea in general is that it can become more powerful than the current design if used to full effectiveness.

The idea on remote shield boost amp and remote nano boost is probably the only part that is considerably balanced, but has the same general effect as remote shield boost/armor rep; the only difference being that the local ship can be more easily countered with neuts, which IMO could make neuts OP, thus again cancelling out logistics as part of a viable fleet.

In the case of remote extenders and remote plates is:
Remote plates don't make sense as far as immersion... How do you increase Hp of armor with a remote module?

Also, the best strategy to counter logi is target swapping and/or finding the most squishy targets.
Once the logi swaps to that target, they then not only rep faster, but also become a harder target.

With logi as they currently are, you can volley between rep cycles.
With remote resists or plate/extenders, it's a direct buff to the target ship that doesn't have a window to alpha through...

Imagine volleying through a tanked up Bhaalgorn... Now imagine volleying through a Bhaalgorn with remote reps.
Then, imagine volleying through a Bhaalgorn with remote extended HP and remotely buffed local reps.

HP is much more effective than boosts/reps and leaves no open windows between cycles.

You do realise we can make a ship local rep for an infinite amount of time right with logi support and there will ALWAYS be a point where losign too many DPS ship will neuter your ability to kill the oposition?

If you do not understand this, please go learn some stuff before suggesting changes to how logi work.

I understand fully that adding another dps ship will mean that much more damage done per cycle and that it will always add up. Bringing another dps ship will ALWAYS mean more damage done. What I want is for that to NOT happen. I want too much dps to be a waste of fleet space! That's the whole point of the ideas I'm presenting here!

I don't want max dps Domi's or NApocs or Megas that sit and get 3-4 x remote tacking boosts to negate the traversal instantly. If a whole wing of logi reps one ship, why shouldn't we be able to keep it alive indefinitely? (given relatively close numbers)

My ideas are trying to accomplish a diminished return where there is a "best" number of dps for a given fleet doctrine, rather than "more is always better."

Long story short: DPS should have a diminishing return in the largest fleet setting, and I'm trying to accomplish this with these ideas.

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Sounds pretty silly don't it.

If you boil down a situation to DPS vs logi and assume equal pilots with equal skill, you get to a point where alpha takes over. either 1 fleet has the dps to break the rep chain, and then that fleet wins, or both fleets get to play target swapping games until the logi pilots mess up. But that is ignoring all the ewar that exists in game. Damps and nuets already rock logi pilots. If you an pull a logi into web/dps range, they go down so much faster than most dps ships.

I like to fly logi. I give up my ability to kill the guys who want to kill me, in order to keep my fleet mates alive. I find it fun to go out in a fleet, and have everyone come back alive because I played well. Why are you trying to nerf my fun?

In all honesty, you're examples are terrible. you keep throwing out things like 50 v 100 fleet battles. At that point, it doesn't need to be logi that prevents you from killing any of your opponents. in your 50 v 100 fleet battle, lets assume both sides have a 50 man dps group of EXACTLY the same ships/skills/pilot skills. the other 50 pilots for the larger side could be flying ECM or damps and damp/jam out your entire fleet and you would do 0 damage.

Logi is currently a reactive game. Your suggestion would necessitate that either A) remote logi be so powerful that once applied a ship basically cannot be killed or B) logi is useless. A remote resistance buff needs to be there before enemy damage lands. Ever forget to turn on a shield hardener until after your shields are gone? That is how logi pilots would be constantly. The goal for fleets wouldn't be "who do we alpha first" but "given our alpha, how many different targets can we alpha at a time."

What ship class exists where 50 of 1 ship shooting 1 ship can't alpha it?

I would suggest a change to how dps works tbh. Move more weapon systems to slower, higher alpha damage strikes. Or enable ships with high alpha to have the tank to be used in larger fleets. A change to most weapon systems of +50% dmage but also a 50% cycle time increase should work. But then the game becomes "no fleet until we have multiple alpha strike." But with high alpha, the defensive game becomes lowing sig and increasing speed to reduce alpha. Since in that world if alpha doesn't kill, reps will land in time to reduce the alpha entirely.

Or you could suggest better rewards for pvping, so that "we might lose but we take enough of them with us" is worth it. But that is largely a social construct issue.

Or you could suggest altering how falloff and optimal ranges work, so that at falloff ships are doing 50% damage, then there is a window around optimal of full damage, and then a narrow window at optimal of double damage before the ships get to close and 1 ship gets under the guns of the other. This also results in higher potential alpha, is easier to achieve in small fleet engagements, and puts more emphasis on individual pilot skill. You could also then see some ships that a balanced around constant dps, where optimal and fallofff are close to each other, and other ships with a role bonus to optimal window damage.

Logi has a windowed response time. If you swap to a new target, 2 seconds to lock and reps/cycle time. Anything that can spike the damage you do in that window makes it harder on logi. Consistant damage on 1 target is the easiest to handle as logi. you either have the reps to counter that or you don't.

Maybe gunnery mods that increase damage at the cost of cycle time instead of increased PG/CPU. Same dps, but bigger spikes.

edit: to put a cap on dps, you could give weapons system collision. IE if too many missles/rockets are being shot at a target, some of them explode before they get there. lasers cause other beams to defuse and hit for 25% or 50% damage. Hybrids/autos cause rounds to deflect and hit for glancing or miss instead. drones ram each other and fail to fire for a cycle or 2.

The idea has its own problems, but its an off the cuff idea. I don't think MMOs should really have a system in place of "you brought more friends, you now all suck." Though it could cause some potential interesting fleet hybridization if you need to balance weapon systems at that point.

edit2: there already is a cap for reps, the buffer the receiving ship has. If you can remove more hp than the shield/armor buffer has then you will eventually kill that ship.