Warfare & Tactics

You know what? If you jump into a system, see 2 other people there, one is in a enyo in a small plex, the other is sitting on station undock in a Damnation, and you still decide to go into the small plex to engage the Enyo; then you deserve what you get.

Instead, add that Damnation pilot and the Enyo pilot to your watch list and avoid him.

After all PVP is mostly about target selection. You know what your ship can do, you know what your opponent's ship can do, and you make a decision on whether or not you can engage him and win.

You don't like people who use links, then don't engage the people who use them. Deny them their PVP fix and they will either quit or put up their link alt and fight like everyone else.

It's fair if I have a friend semi-afk in a link ship fleet up with me to give me boost and it's pay2win if I have my own link alt that I have to move myself in case of danger.
It's fair if I have a corpmate with a jump freighter haul stuff for me for free to our home system and it's pay2win if I have my own JF alt.
It's fair if I ask my alliancemate to light a cyno for me to do cyno-related stuff but it's pay2win if I have my own cyno alt doing cyno related stuff.
It's fair if I have a corpmate in a cloaky falcon to make someone cry and it's pay2win to have a cloaky falcon alt.

All the stuff I've read the past few pages has been a strong case of sour grapes to be fair.

Oh here's another one:
It's fair if I bring my friends to a fight to help me and blob2win if the other side has more friends than my side.

Yes, yes and yes? Everytime a soloer bitches and moans about people taking the easy road the response is 'its an MMO.'

The guy paying one subscription has to ask/form relations with other real players to engage in any of your examples (links, cyno, hauling.) In that view of the universe he is actually engaging in an MMO, his advantages over other individuals are accrued through working with other real people.

The alternative, the current reality, the player can simply double/triple/10x the amount of money he puts into the game, and now he can bypass the entire need to form relations with anyone with no apparent downside, in fact in many examples multiboxing is more efficient/performs better than having multiple real people controlling individual toons.

There is no need to 'expand' the definition of P2W here. EVE favors those with more numbers, a good MMO, you can achieve the end result by either being sociable and engaging in MMO things, or you can simpy dump more money into CCP coffers and achieve the same (if not a better) result.

"Pay to win is a specific business model to allow a single player who is willing to pay money to gain an advantage over another single player who doesnt."

Any further definition is not needed. If it was the case that paying for a second copy of BF4 enabled you to run two players side by side, and the result was an advantage over someone only running one copy, then you have clear cut P2W. 'Golden ammo' is a nice easy to visualize example, but in no meaningful way is it distinct from other examples of P2W.

Beat me to it. It's a case of interpersonal relationships developed in-game, which is what an MMO is supposed to be about - vs. buying your own gang.

Anyone who has read my many responses would have notes that I happily concede that EVE is a game which has grown reliant on the use of alts.

However, I also make a distinction between using alts to deal with different areas of the game, for example a freighter to move ships or an incursion runner to generate isk; and using multiple accounts simultaneously to allow a single player to control a pair, a trio, or even a small fleet without having to contend with the all the issues attendant to relying on other human beings. It is pay to win by every reasonably definition, but that's the game and it won't be changing.

It's not a game breaking issue in most cases because of the efficiency loss involved in multiboxing larger numbers in more complex situations, because there aren't ALL that many people willing to drop $100 a month on subs alone or grind the requisite PLEX (especially with climbing prices), and most importantly because you can in almost every case stomp on a multiboxed in a PvP encounter by bringing friends. It's annoying because I have to recruit human players around an objective while they just have ro log in all their alts, but it is counterable.

Except in the case of links, which are afk-able most of the time and effectively un-counterable unless the user is asleep.

Again, all i see is an assertion that multiple accounts is p2w because eve is an MMO. As if that even makes sense lol.

It doesnt matter to me who is controlling what in space. Im shooting pixels, not half dressed men in their moms basement. Someone either has boosts or they do not. They cannot have boosts without a booster. Boosters are easy to spot, and if you want, easy to prevent from being used. There is no scenario where i warp[ into a plex and someone is gaining an undue advantage on their single character because of rl money they have put into the game.

TBH, a closer example of pay to win would be someone meta 14 fitting their ship with gtc isk. But personally, i dont think those people are a detriment to the game either :)

Rather than complaining about something that eve essentially isnt, why not make horrible suggestions that will fix the mechanics and drive behavior in a way that YOU approve of lol.

I think the most important thing with link alts is to ensure they are in a situation where they can be killed. Weapon timers would certainly be a good solution to prevent people from boosting on gates/stations and force them into actual space, where they risk being scanned and killed. One of the downsides of muti-boxing a link alt is you are unable to give its D-Scan your full attention throughout a difficult fight.

A friend may not be able to compromise his real life in order to come and help you out. A friend may also have different priorities, and may not enjoy being your linking pet.
An alt has no strings attached. It's there when you want it to be, no questions asked, no hassle and no moaning.

The involvement of a linking alt in an encounter is passive, with great effect. The involvement of a prober, alt or friend, cannot be passive in any capacity with no guarantees.

All it comes down to is someone having to take one for the team, sit on the sidelines and babysit the opponents links. That's not very engaging and doubtfully the reason why someone spends his time and money to play this game.

The whole "this is an MMO - socialise and bring a friend" argument would hold merit if it weren't so goddamn agonising to actually play a niche utility role. But it is. Whether the solution is to nerf one side or change the other, that's debatable to the end of days. If playing as a dedicated prober wasn't so empty, I wouldn't peep about links.

This won't matter at all, literally. Unless there is a mechanic to stop them from being pre aligned and unable to equip stabilizers the effect is the same as if they were sitting on the station.

You do realise most if not all boosting fits do not have the ability to fit warp stabs? Dropping a depot for a refit is an option but you can just shoot the depot. If they are paying attention they would have seen the probes. If not they is a very high chance you can land on them with a fast locker and snag a easy 400m+ kill.