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Svipuls way OP - look at this video
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#41 - 2015-06-17 15:57:10 UTC
When you say effective ECM morg, do you mean a gallente jammer to jam a minmatar ship?
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#42 - 2015-06-17 17:01:14 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
When you say effective ECM morg, do you mean a gallente jammer to jam a minmatar ship?


Nah, I use the Amarr one because it fits lore better for shutting down Minmatar.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#43 - 2015-06-17 19:20:03 UTC
I just bring cans of WD-40 to fight Svipuls. Been using a Jackjaw on my alt and haven't really had a problem fighting them.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-06-17 21:08:26 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
If a Tech 3 Destroyer goes into defensive mode to taken your incoming DPS you can begin to control the engagement range to minimize DPS. If it goes into speed mode to try and catch you or dance away from you then he loses tank
I realize I'm speaking from the low end of the SP pool here - but that sounds a lot like "If he's slow, then you can control the engagement distance and that's good for you! If he's controlling the engagement distance due to speed, then that's also good for you!"
Moglarr wrote:
That being said, I do try to avoid fighting Svipuls whenever I can, because they are a very risky ship for me to engage with the fleets I usually fly.
Oh, well "My fleet stays away from lone Svipuls" doesn't sound OP at all.
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#45 - 2015-06-17 22:35:59 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
That being said, I do try to avoid fighting Svipuls whenever I can, because they are a very risky ship for me to engage with the fleets I usually fly.
Oh, well "My fleet stays away from lone Svipuls" doesn't sound OP at all.
[/quote]

In all fairness it's because him and the rest of the Suj pipe residents were used to me roaming around in a 500m Svi, 1.5b pod, and links. If that can't handle 5-6 t1 fit frigs and dessies then nothing should.
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#46 - 2015-06-17 22:40:06 UTC
Quote:

Dread Operative wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
That being said, I do try to avoid fighting Svipuls whenever I can, because they are a very risky ship for me to engage with the fleets I usually fly.
Oh, well "My fleet stays away from lone Svipuls" doesn't sound OP at all.


In all fairness it's because him and the rest of the Suj pipe residents were used to me roaming around in a 500m Svi, 1.5b pod, and links. If that can't handle 5-6 t1 fit frigs and dessies then nothing should.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#47 - 2015-06-17 23:36:03 UTC
just easy think How often do you see solo svipul vs how often solo confessor/jack? and second ask what kind of doctrine fleet do you see? svipul doctrine is x times more often than other t3...



pure numbers:

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34562/solo/ -- 1700 solo kills

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34317/solo/ -- 583 solo kills

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34828/solo/ -- 500 solo kills



ship is simply op....

sry for my English :-(
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#48 - 2015-06-18 00:01:34 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
If a Tech 3 Destroyer goes into defensive mode to taken your incoming DPS you can begin to control the engagement range to minimize DPS. If it goes into speed mode to try and catch you or dance away from you then he loses tank
I realize I'm speaking from the low end of the SP pool here - but that sounds a lot like "If he's slow, then you can control the engagement distance and that's good for you! If he's controlling the engagement distance due to speed, then that's also good for you!"
Moglarr wrote:
That being said, I do try to avoid fighting Svipuls whenever I can, because they are a very risky ship for me to engage with the fleets I usually fly.
Oh, well "My fleet stays away from lone Svipuls" doesn't sound OP at all.


SP has little to do with it. Ideally if the Svipul is moving slow you can keep out of his optimal range. If he is 10MN AB and moving fast then he is less agile and often ends up quickly out of point range and you can boogie away.

The reason I tend to have my fleet avoid Svipul gangs is more of an SP thing. My average gang of t1 frigs stand very little chance against a similar sized fleet of t3 dessies. That is more of a common sense thing tho, I think.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#49 - 2015-06-18 06:31:09 UTC
OP is mad, I find this laughable. The video proves nothing, and KB stats only prove a ship is popular.

The person in the Vid spent as much isk as the ships killed, working as intended, If you want to complain how about how heavy missiles are practically worthless in the vast majority of PVP situations.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2015-06-18 07:34:21 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
SP has little to do with it.
...
The reason I tend to have my fleet avoid Svipul gangs is more of an SP thing.

Blink

You'll have to forgive the bitterness from somebody who knows that as Dread said:
Dread Operative wrote:
In all fairness it's because him and the rest of the Suj pipe residents were used to me roaming around in a 500m Svi, 1.5b pod, and links. If that can't handle 5-6 t1 fit frigs and dessies then nothing should.
ISKy fits win fights. And I don't even have the SP necessary to fit the modules expensive enough to compete (or the income necessary to flush them down the drain in constant PVP).
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#51 - 2015-06-18 13:28:24 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
SP has little to do with it.
...
The reason I tend to have my fleet avoid Svipul gangs is more of an SP thing.

Blink

You'll have to forgive the bitterness from somebody who knows that as Dread said:
Dread Operative wrote:
In all fairness it's because him and the rest of the Suj pipe residents were used to me roaming around in a 500m Svi, 1.5b pod, and links. If that can't handle 5-6 t1 fit frigs and dessies then nothing should.
ISKy fits win fights. And I don't even have the SP necessary to fit the modules expensive enough to compete (or the income necessary to flush them down the drain in constant PVP).



Do not confuse Dread's statement to mean that ISK and SP win fights. As Dread said, I fought his Svipul a few times before they were adjusted. The times that I engaged I doubt I had anything fancier than t1 fit frigates. ISK, links, drugs and SP can give a pilot an edge in a fight but they do not promise victory. The reason his Svipul could take on small gangs of frigates is because he had complete range control with the 10MN AB couple that with good piloting and knowledge of how EVE works and then throw him into a fight against people who are not as familiar with the meta and he is bound to at least kill a lot of people.

What you should take away from Dread's statement is that in order to safely take on 5-6 t1 frigs and dessies he needed a 500m ship, 1.5b pod and a second account running links. That doesn't make a particular hull over powered. That is over two billion ISK in assets (not counting the links ship itself) deployed in order to kill 5-12 million ISK worth of ****.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#52 - 2015-06-18 13:52:46 UTC
Just ban em from smalls already to give Dessies and AFs a niche again outside of sniper corms and snarpies.

JUSTK is recruiting
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2015-06-18 14:03:37 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
Do not confuse Dread's statement to mean that ISK and SP win fights.
...
What you should take away from Dread's statement is that in order to safely take on 5-6 t1 frigs and dessies he needed a 500m ship, 1.5b pod and a second account running links.
Well, "ISKing up" seemed to work pretty well for Dread. I know that simply spending more ISK on your fit won't entirely auto-win the fight, but saying ISK/SP don't win fights is misguided at best (though a common belief among people who have both the ISK and SP).

As for whether or not that makes the hull OP - well, I'm personally not a real fan of the way power is set up in the hierarchy of hulls. If I had an established ISK flow that let me wipe my ass with HACs, I'd probably feel differently - but I have to say that not having the real option to upship colors my opinion of T2 resists, the extra tier of hull bonuses and the +10-20% on all the modules.

One day though.
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#54 - 2015-06-18 15:24:26 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
Do not confuse Dread's statement to mean that ISK and SP win fights.
...
What you should take away from Dread's statement is that in order to safely take on 5-6 t1 frigs and dessies he needed a 500m ship, 1.5b pod and a second account running links.
Well, "ISKing up" seemed to work pretty well for Dread. I know that simply spending more ISK on your fit won't entirely auto-win the fight, but saying ISK/SP don't win fights is misguided at best (though a common belief among people who have both the ISK and SP).

As for whether or not that makes the hull OP - well, I'm personally not a real fan of the way power is set up in the hierarchy of hulls. If I had an established ISK flow that let me wipe my ass with HACs, I'd probably feel differently - but I have to say that not having the real option to upship colors my opinion of T2 resists, the extra tier of hull bonuses and the +10-20% on all the modules.

One day though.


ISK and SP give a pilot advantages. That is what I am trying to underscore for you.

Some ships are "powerful" others are not. Each ship has niche rolls they can fit into because at the end of the day thru are just different tools to achieve different jobs. You can't expect your t1 frigates to be able to take on a HAC. If you do then you're being foolish. That being said, if you have a gang of t1 frigs against that HAC the situation changes drastically.

Do you get what I mean?

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#55 - 2015-06-18 16:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dread Operative
Expecting a 2m isk dessie to give you the around the same results as a 70m isk dessie is like expecting a $10k Honda Civic to perform on par with a $350k sports car. Of course income makes a difference, and it should. It's all dividends. 70m ship performs better, two 90m reps rep better, 80m EANM better resists, T2 rigs bigger bonuses, they are going to make a difference, and they should. Just my humble opionion though since I have both isk/SP and experience.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27713163 - first Svi kill.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-06-18 17:21:16 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
ISK and SP give a pilot advantages. That is what I am trying to underscore for you.
And I agree, though apparently you don't like my take on the idea. :)

Player skill gives an advantage.
Understanding the mechanics,
Having the ISK to spend,
Having the SP to fit,
Having friends in local,
These things all give advantages - and any one of them could be the thing 'responsible' for your win. I've got my own take on which of those are fun methods of gaining an advantage, but I realize that they'll all contribute to a greater or lesser degree in any given fight. And it's entirely possible that the lion's share of the responsibility for the win came from simply buying power with a heavy ISK investment.

Dread Operative wrote:
Of course income makes a difference, and it should.
For myself, it'd just be nice if there wasn't also the SP grind to deal with first. If all I had to do was figure out a way to earn an income instead of waiting for the SP for a proper fit (I think I'm only 2-ish weeks out from a half decent Frigate fit. Woooo.....) the ISK advantage would be easier to get behind.

None of which really addresses whether the Svipul itself is OP. I mean, it seems far more popular than the other T3s so... probably?
Lucy Callagan
Goryn Clade
#57 - 2015-06-18 21:08:24 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
Do not confuse Dread's statement to mean that ISK and SP win fights.
...
What you should take away from Dread's statement is that in order to safely take on 5-6 t1 frigs and dessies he needed a 500m ship, 1.5b pod and a second account running links.
Well, "ISKing up" seemed to work pretty well for Dread. I know that simply spending more ISK on your fit won't entirely auto-win the fight, but saying ISK/SP don't win fights is misguided at best (though a common belief among people who have both the ISK and SP).

As for whether or not that makes the hull OP - well, I'm personally not a real fan of the way power is set up in the hierarchy of hulls. If I had an established ISK flow that let me wipe my ass with HACs, I'd probably feel differently - but I have to say that not having the real option to upship colors my opinion of T2 resists, the extra tier of hull bonuses and the +10-20% on all the modules.

One day though.


ISK and SP give a pilot advantages. That is what I am trying to underscore for you.

Some ships are "powerful" others are not. Each ship has niche rolls they can fit into because at the end of the day thru are just different tools to achieve different jobs. You can't expect your t1 frigates to be able to take on a HAC. If you do then you're being foolish. That being said, if you have a gang of t1 frigs against that HAC the situation changes drastically.

Do you get what I mean?

You can actually kill a hac with a frig, when i hunt with my succubus, my main targets are ishtars, but i must recognise that my fit is pretty expensive. But you can kill lots of cruisers even hacs by getting under their guns (for instance zealots and even some rare 425mm cynas) https://zkillboard.com/kill/45910026/
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2015-06-19 06:40:01 UTC
Lucy Callagan wrote:
You can actually kill a hac with a frig, when i hunt with my succubus, my main targets are ishtars, but i must recognise that my fit is pretty expensive. But you can kill lots of cruisers even hacs by getting under their guns (for instance zealots and even some rare 425mm cynas) https://zkillboard.com/kill/45910026/


Succubus is particularly good at punching above its weight class. There's a few pirate frigs that do this exceptionally well. Worm and to a lesser extent rocket Garmur are also excellent choices.
George Boothe
Blootered Bastards
#59 - 2015-06-19 09:21:21 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
For myself, it'd just be nice if there wasn't also the SP grind to deal with first. If all I had to do was figure out a way to earn an income instead of waiting for the SP for a proper fit (I think I'm only 2-ish weeks out from a half decent Frigate fit. Woooo.....)



Why are you waiting 2 weeks to get into a frigate?
I can understand that if you want a standard allround pvp frig fit, but that is not at all necessary for someone new to pvp.

It takes less than 4 days training time to build a t1 fit frigate that works, you just have to build it as a specific counter against a very narrow range of enemies. That way your engagement range is severely limited, but you can hold your ground against the ships you directly counter.
Of course, you will not be very efficient at first but you are playing the game, learing stuff and not get totally slaughtered instead of waiting 2 weeks staring at your skillqueue and getting slaughtered afterwards because SP means very little in the rock/paper/scissors that is frigate pvp.
More SP just means you can fit your ships a little more generalized and broaden the range of ships you can engage.

Just as an example:
This fit takes less than 3 days to get into and gives you a decent chance to hunt kiting slicers.

[Slasher, slicer killer]

F85 Peripheral Damage System I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50

125mm Light Prototype Automatic Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
125mm Light Prototype Automatic Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
125mm Light Prototype Automatic Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
[Empty High slot]

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Obviously you will not automatically kill every slicer you engage in this but it gives you a fighting chance to kill someone with years of SP in a ship that costs about 7 times as much as yours.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2015-06-19 14:24:05 UTC
George Boothe wrote:
Why are you waiting 2 weeks to get into a frigate?
Depends on how many wrecks it takes before you are no longer 'waiting 2 weeks'. I've already got a hanger I'm rapidly depleting of frigates, with fits not too terribly different than yours. But the engagement profiles are, as you said, so very tiny that anything I do meet is usually outside it. And then I get blown up because I don't remember every hull fitting tendency by heart. :P

The weeks I'm waiting for is when I can fit something better. And then there will be another wait while I get my ISK generating skills up to fund these bigger, more generally competent fits.