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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-06-13 20:12:40 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Oh I've lived out in Null sec. I know how safe it can be. You don't get to kill over 5k pirate faction ships, with only ~20 players in the system, if it is "dangerous". Concord can contribute to ship loss, but the data doesn't say all high sec and low sec ship losses are from Concord.

Do you get killed by Concord often or something? Pirate

Great, you'll be up for the challenge then?

No, the data is not representing only Concord losses, though I'm confused as to what Concord losses in lowsec you are referring to?

As to me, you can check my killboard easily to see if I am ever killed by Concord. I don't play in highsec, so the answer is no, but the evidence is easy to look at.

Are you saying Concord kills ships in null sec?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#42 - 2015-06-13 20:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Are you saying Concord kills ships in null sec?

That would be an idiotic thing to say, so of course not. Where did you get that impression? I must have typed something very wrong if I gave the impression that Concord operates anywhere but in highsec.

I sent you a mail so we can get this challenge up and running.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2015-06-13 20:24:20 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Are you saying Concord kills ships in null sec?

That would be an idiotic thing to say, so of course not.

I sent you a mail so we can get this challenge up and running.

It would be an idiotic thing to say all ship losses in high sec are Concord kills too. I invite all players to open their maps and see for themselves. Let them with their own resources determine what the data says.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#44 - 2015-06-13 20:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Aza Ebanu wrote:
It would be an idiotic thing to say all ship losses in high sec are Concord kills too...

No one has said that, so we don't need to be concerned there I guess.

I'd be surprised if many people need to open the map at all to understand whether highsec is more or less dangerous than nullsec, but those stats don't really help much anyway.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2015-06-13 20:29:49 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
It would be an idiotic thing to say all ship losses in high sec are Concord kills too...

No one has said that, so we don't need to be concerned there I guess.

Welcome to the club then friend. Pull up a chair and relax. The data is good.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#46 - 2015-06-13 20:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Welcome to the club then friend. Pull up a chair and relax. The data is good.

No reply mail yet?

As to the data, the raw data is just the raw data. No mistakes in it. Interpretation of the data is a whole other issue. A blanket conclusion that highsec is more dangerous than nullsec is pretty funny.

However, if you are concerned about flying a ship in highsec, then we can use scouts or whatever to mitigate the risk while we are in highsec. I'm happy to accommodate whatever risk management you would like in the highsec part of our test.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#47 - 2015-06-13 21:03:09 UTC
So to recap, Concord remains the biggest killing Corp in High sec and clouds don't always mean rain.

Cool. Straight

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-06-13 21:26:32 UTC
Mag's wrote:
So to recap, Concord remains the biggest killing Corp in High sec and clouds don't always mean rain.

Cool. Straight

Not if you count low sec ship loss Twisted
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#49 - 2015-06-13 21:39:22 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
It would be an idiotic thing to say all ship losses in high sec are Concord kills too...

No one has said that, so we don't need to be concerned there I guess.

I'd be surprised if many people need to open the map at all to understand whether highsec is more or less dangerous than nullsec, but those stats don't really help much anyway.



Wait? Are we going to let it stand if a real player whore's on the concord kill? Or do we draw the line on anything with concord in it? What about if a Empire Faction ship is on the kill too?

What if the null sec ship is killed while ratting, the belt rat would probably be top damage. Oh noes, we gotta throw that one out too.

Where does the madness end? Twisted

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#50 - 2015-06-13 21:46:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Wait? Are we going to let it stand if a real player *****'s on the concord kill? Or do we draw the line on anything with concord in it? What about if a Empire Faction ship is on the kill too?

What if the null sec ship is killed while ratting, the belt rat would probably be top damage. Oh noes, we gotta throw that one out too.

Where does the madness end? Twisted

We're a few pages into the thread now, so the general idea of the discussion to this point is easy to miss.

I'm not discounting any kills. All the kills stand. It's good of Aza to acknowledge that ganking is a dangerous activity and far from risk free pvp. Looking at the stats and his line of analysis, it would be reasonable to conclude that ganking is the most dangerous form of pvp in the game and gankers take huge risks in their activities. Very erudite of him in that regard.

As to rat losses, yes they are all shown on the in game map and the bulk of them occur in highsec (there's even a new player mission where it's a 100% chance of losing a ship). None of that is being discounted at all. The raw data is just the raw data. Understanding what the figures include and what that means is something different.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2015-06-13 21:50:38 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is it important that people in nullsec are ratting? Is that not a valid playstyle for someone in nullsec?

no trolling but you said it by yourself: there is not enough people to have significant ship kills. But enough to hav esignificant NPC kills? What?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2015-06-13 22:05:17 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Wait? Are we going to let it stand if a real player *****'s on the concord kill? Or do we draw the line on anything with concord in it? What about if a Empire Faction ship is on the kill too?

What if the null sec ship is killed while ratting, the belt rat would probably be top damage. Oh noes, we gotta throw that one out too.

Where does the madness end? Twisted

We're a few pages into the thread now, so the general idea of the discussion to this point is easy to miss.

I'm not discounting any kills. All the kills stand. It's good of Aza to acknowledge that ganking is a dangerous activity(in high sec) and far from risk free pvp(in high sec). Looking at the stats and his line of analysis, it would be reasonable to conclude that ganking is the most dangerous form of pvp in high sec and gankers take huge risks in their activities(in high sec). Very erudite of him in that regard.

As to rat losses, yes they are all shown on the in game map and the bulk of them occur in highsec (there's even a new player mission where it's a 100% chance of losing a ship). None of that is being discounted at all. The raw data is just the raw data. Understanding what the figures include and what that means is something different.

I don't know about the point about most NPCs being destroyed in high sec. A significant amount are being destroyed in null and we don't have WH data.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#53 - 2015-06-13 22:06:21 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is it important that people in nullsec are ratting? Is that not a valid playstyle for someone in nullsec?

no trolling but you said it by yourself: there is not enough people to have significant ship kills. But enough to hav esignificant NPC kills? What?


That'd be the glory of drones, wouldn't it? The only weapon system that defends you without you having to do anything.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#54 - 2015-06-13 22:12:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
March rabbit wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is it important that people in nullsec are ratting? Is that not a valid playstyle for someone in nullsec?

no trolling but you said it by yourself: there is not enough people to have significant ship kills. But enough to hav esignificant NPC kills? What?

I've never said there's not enough people to have significant ship kills.

So maybe I'll ask the same question. So what in relation to the number of NPC kills in nullsec?

Those stats don't show that there is more PvE than PvP occurring in nullsec, but that conclusion may be based on a different understanding of what is a measure of more PvE or more PvP. My own view of that is explained back on page 1 (post #10).

There's lots of belt/gate ratting, combat site running and some missioning happening. Everyone knows that. But are people not allowed to do what they want in nullsec? Does what people are doing to earn ISK or grind status, or whatever; have to be a wedge to drive silly division in the forum community?

I dont personally see why it matters what anyone is doing no matter where they play. Good on anyone no matter how they earn their ISK. It's kind of a necessary evil for us all. We don't have to constantly drive division in the community though.

That's all this thread is about. Tit-for-tat misrepresenting stats to drive division.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#55 - 2015-06-13 22:30:48 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Wait? Are we going to let it stand if a real player *****'s on the concord kill? Or do we draw the line on anything with concord in it? What about if a Empire Faction ship is on the kill too?

What if the null sec ship is killed while ratting, the belt rat would probably be top damage. Oh noes, we gotta throw that one out too.

Where does the madness end? Twisted

We're a few pages into the thread now, so the general idea of the discussion to this point is easy to miss.

I'm not discounting any kills. All the kills stand. It's good of Aza to acknowledge that ganking is a dangerous activity and far from risk free pvp. Looking at the stats and his line of analysis, it would be reasonable to conclude that ganking is the most dangerous form of pvp in the game and gankers take huge risks in their activities. Very erudite of him in that regard.

As to rat losses, yes they are all shown on the in game map and the bulk of them occur in highsec (there's even a new player mission where it's a 100% chance of losing a ship). None of that is being discounted at all. The raw data is just the raw data. Understanding what the figures include and what that means is something different.



That is good to understand. Ganking is a valid and worthwhile activity. it serves a purpose. It also happens to be one of the biggest reasons for kills in high-sec.

So, if there are so many Concord kills, how could Highsec possibly be so safe? There are at least 4500 Concord kills the past 7 days. I wouldn't call that safe. But extrapolating that out, we are in week 26 right? So 117k kills this year of the 1.8 million total kills are from gankers dying to concord.

So if we were to remove those, still High-sec has the most raw number of kills, even without CCP's data on total isk lost being weighted to High Sec as well.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#56 - 2015-06-13 22:32:58 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

So, if there are so many Concord kills, how could Highsec possibly be so safe?


Because there are Concord kills in the first place. If highsec weren't so nauseatingly safe, there would be a lot less Concord kills, and a lot more player kills.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2015-06-13 22:36:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is it important that people in nullsec are ratting? Is that not a valid playstyle for someone in nullsec?

no trolling but you said it by yourself: there is not enough people to have significant ship kills. But enough to hav esignificant NPC kills? What?


That'd be the glory of drones, wouldn't it? The only weapon system that defends you without you having to do anything.

Well drones are part of game design. So if thats what CCP wanted, then that is fine as they are designed to do that.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#58 - 2015-06-13 22:37:00 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

So, if there are so many Concord kills, how could Highsec possibly be so safe?


Because there are Concord kills in the first place. If highsec weren't so nauseatingly safe, there would be a lot less Concord kills, and a lot more player kills.



OK, I didn't realize that if Concord was on a mail the intended attacker must not have killed his prey.

FYI, concord has nothing to do with making high-sec safe or not. There is no concord in 0.0 yet there is more kills in High-sec? Maybe Concord sleeps on the job too much?

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#59 - 2015-06-13 22:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So if we were to remove those, still High-sec has the most raw number of kills, even without CCP's data on total isk lost being weighted to High Sec as well.

Don't remove those kills. If we did that, then we could discuss removing all NPC kills (eg. Kills in burner missions in high which are totally optional and have no downside to rejecting, but which aren't available at all in nullsec), etc.

Easier to keep all the figures and if the conclusion is that highsec is more dangerous then nullsec, that conclusion would also represent suicide ganking as being a dangerous activity and not risk free pvp.

If that was a conclusion everyone could agree too, then this is one of the most useful threads in a long time. That would actually start to reduce division in the forum and bring us all towards a consensus. That would be a very good outcome.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2015-06-13 22:38:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

So, if there are so many Concord kills, how could Highsec possibly be so safe?


Because there are Concord kills in the first place. If highsec weren't so nauseatingly safe, there would be a lot less Concord kills, and a lot more player kills.

Sad. There's no data to lend any validity to your statements.