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Fleet warps.

First post First post
Author
Valterra Craven
#21 - 2015-06-12 00:37:48 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
You know what would have addressed it, if fleet warping to bookmarks and prove results were restricted to squad leaders.

You want to warp a fleet to a bookmark, the wing commander and fleet commander can't, the squad commander can.



This. Times a thousand. Gets some of the affect you want without killing the small timers like me who run missions with two accounts.


Also, why not just nerf bomber warp accel and warp speed to get them on grid slower if thats what this change was about?
Borsek
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2015-06-12 00:44:04 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
You know what would have addressed it, if fleet warping to bookmarks and prove results were restricted to squad leaders.

You want to warp a fleet to a bookmark, the wing commander and fleet commander can't, the squad commander can.



This. Times a thousand. Gets some of the affect you want without killing the small timers like me who run missions with two accounts.


Also, why not just nerf bomber warp accel and warp speed to get them on grid slower if thats what this change was about?


Because, as I once read on tthese very forums, circa 2009:

There is a leaking pipe in the basement.

The sensible solution would be to patch the pipe up, or to replace it.

The CCP solution would be to add a 200hp diesel powered pump to pump the water out.

But worry not, my friend, for this is 2015, and now CCP will let you choose between 3 or more fancy colors for your engine!
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-06-12 00:48:31 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
This. Times a thousand. Gets some of the affect you want without killing the small timers like me who run missions with two accounts.

Right, because running missions with 2 accounts is what this change is going to affect.... please....

For all that hate this change is getting, it IS being made to address many gameplay aspects that everyone hates.
As usual, is it a bit heavy handed but I'm never going to agree with anyone who is hating on this change just cos 'adding difficulty to large fleet fights is bad'.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Borsek
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2015-06-12 01:05:05 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
This. Times a thousand. Gets some of the affect you want without killing the small timers like me who run missions with two accounts.

Right, because running missions with 2 accounts is what this change is going to affect.... please....

For all that hate this change is getting, it IS being made to address many gameplay aspects that everyone hates.
As usual, is it a bit heavy handed but I'm never going to agree with anyone who is hating on this change just cos 'adding difficulty to large fleet fights is bad'.


But don't you see? That's exactly the problem, it does make large fleet fights harder, but it also ***** on hundreds of other situations, that's the problem. There are a dozen ways of making large fights different, one of which could easily be to change the warp-in bubble size to 10km radius or nerfing a specific ship class, this change effectively makes multiboxing annoying as hell, having to warp multiple ships one by one.

The charm and fun of eve was never the combat system - keep em in your guns' optimals, be faster, be tankier, whatever, the most advanced techniques of eve combat are doubleclicking in space and overheating properly. It was never about the freaking mechanics, it was about raping the hell out of something the other guy worked hard for. Getting tears, schadenfreude. Now CCP made poeple fly ****-tier inexpensive ships, which they don't care about losing, clones now cost 0 ISK, so now, suddenly no one gives a flying fedo about losing this or that ship or pod, it's all meaningless, and since it's meaningless, everybody suddenly realized the mechanics through which you lose said ships are ****-tier, just like the ships themselves.

Now CCP is trying to make the mechanics 'more interesting' instead of striking at the root of the problem, nerfing the crap out of frigate-**** ships, and getting people to fly shiny **** they don't want to lose, so when they fight in it, they get an adrenaline RUSH, instead of hooray, I just killed a ******* tristan.
Hippinse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-06-12 01:07:34 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
This. Times a thousand. Gets some of the affect you want without killing the small timers like me who run missions with two accounts.

Right, because running missions with 2 accounts is what this change is going to affect.... please....

For all that hate this change is getting, it IS being made to address many gameplay aspects that everyone hates.
As usual, is it a bit heavy handed but I'm never going to agree with anyone who is hating on this change just cos 'adding difficulty to large fleet fights is bad'.


This is my first post on this topic. This change will affect me, as I use 2 accounts to run class 2 combat sites. The net effect will be that I have to wait for the bookmark system to propagate the corp bookmark to the other client, or I'll have to jump one account in first and tank with 50% dps until the second can warp to the first. Not the end of the world, but less optimal than things are today.

What are the gameplay aspects that are being fixed by this change? Is there a list of examples in the other thread that I missed?
Darth Bex
Boundless Exploration
#26 - 2015-06-12 01:40:57 UTC
CCP have made some big strides forward with bookmarks in recent times. This is a giant leap backwards.

Console me with Alliance bookmarks and I'll forget we ever spoke of this.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#27 - 2015-06-12 01:47:46 UTC
Well, this is going to probably force me to lay the ultimatum down for one of the corps in my alliance which has been hemming and hawing about merging.

Right now, if a scout in one corp goes 4 holes down the chain and finds, lets say, a rattlesnake, we put a member of his corp in the squad or wing position and they squad or wing warp to the next hole, next hole, etc. Without that ability, this will become uber painful, because the only other way is to swap BM's, which take 10 minutes to propagate. Or, like I said, they're going to merge, bunch of inactive asstards they are anyway.

The NPSI fleets i run on fridays, well, thanks. Herding cats is now 10x harder. Try getting more than 2 people to warp to a ceptor on his ping. No big deal though, everyone will get picked off one by one by small gangs of single-corp people. So the roam will die a death of a dozen papercuts versus everyone welping goriously in one cataclysmic failcascade. I'm sure that will be more fun.

Since you are doing this, can we also look at nerfing public covops fleet behaviour? Can you make it so only corp members can access covert cyno fields? That will kill bombers bar and spectrefleet and nix all bait cyno activity in one fell swoop. This will only destroy terrible FCs running fleets for terrible people playing terrible gameplay, sitting around for 5 hours passively waiting for a bait cyno to go up and then piling through like a herd of mongoloid kittens, slurring their mewling cries in local and falling over in a pathetically cute fashion. That would be sweet. Thanks. more people might actually try and get good at BLOPs versus just work the numbers game of having 40 bombers to kill a tristan.

But for day-to-day...no biggie. We don't really use too much squad and fleet warping to fling gangs at targets. We usually have a scout, or a bait hauler, on field and WWW in fleet. So i guess my guys who seem incapable of having fleet cha window open will have to shape up and keep their ears and eyes open more, since they won't be able to get squad warped.

In fact, you could just take the whole squad warp out of the game entirely in one go. I mean, if it's only going to work on celestials anyway, who cares? Peons can warp themselves.
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-06-12 02:01:59 UTC
Seems like a heavy handed approach to fix what i assume is mostly bomber related problems. but you just go ahead and do whatever makes you happy CCP, people will either adapt or stop playing. Honestly i don't even care anymore.

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-06-12 02:32:27 UTC
Borsek wrote:
But don't you see? That's exactly the problem, it does make large fleet fights harder, but it also ***** on hundreds of other situations, that's the problem. There are a dozen ways of making large fights different, one of which could easily be to change the warp-in bubble size to 10km radius or nerfing a specific ship class, this change effectively makes multiboxing annoying as hell, having to warp multiple ships one by one.

yeah, i agree.
like I said, I dont like this change but I do see what they're try to accomplish with it.
i think limiting fleet warp abilities (all of them) to squad commanders would solve the entire issue much better than what theyre doing.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Steven Hackett
Overload This
TURBOFEED OR GLORY
#30 - 2015-06-12 04:23:04 UTC
With the introduction of frigate wormholes ([font="Sarcastica"]Thank you Fozzie[/font]), scanning in cov-ops has become more used. Cov-ops doesn't like being decloaked with sleeper frigates on grid.
With the changes to the scanners way of instantly telling people that a new signature is present ([font="Sarcastica"]Thatks, we so much needed this[/font]), time and speed has become more important than ever.

How do we use warping to bookmarks?
- We use bookmarks for everything. Warping to wormholes, warping to wrecks, tractor units etc. We make the bookmark, then we fleetwarp the fleet to the bookmark so they don't have to wait for it to propagate.

How do we use warping to scanned signatures?
- When trying to catch targets, combat scanning them becomes a race against time due to the changes to signature spawn(read above). Decloaking a cov-ops on grid with sleeper frigs, lokis etc, is borderline suicidal. Fleetwarp will often be used to warp suicide dictors and similar onto the enemy fleet in order to establise tackle.

So these changes gives us 2 options.
We can either suicide a ship/pilot in order to provide a warp in, which will remove that pilot from the fight (Sounds like the definition of a bad game to me?)

Or, we can wait 10 minuts for every pilot to get the bookmark, which will often equal no-fight. And personally I think it is pretty bad game design to have some bad propagation code decide when a player can or can't warp.

My only prayer for CCP: Stop being lazy, start getting better. Recent and coming changes are dominated by you choosing "the easy way" instead of the good way. being lazy is a good way of making bad decissions.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-06-12 04:52:44 UTC
I case anyone missed it in the main thread on this change, I present the quote of the year:

"This isn't the least bit true. Ganks require a lot of skill and coordination."
- Long Muppet, LZHX

(In response to someone suggesting that ganks are currently zero effort affairs.)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Chainsstyle Arnerette
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-06-12 04:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Chainsstyle Arnerette
Steven is spot on.


This seems like a rather blanket solution for a specific problem. I feel like many players would appreciate some changes to bomber mechanics but this is like bringing a nuke to a knife fight.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say.....

Have bombers emit radial damage when they fire and damage each other? The more bombers clumped closely together would increase damage.
blue coeur
Chicka Chicka Boom Boom
#33 - 2015-06-12 05:52:23 UTC  |  Edited by: blue coeur
CCP Larken,
Thank your for taking the time to read our opinions and thoughts on these proposed changes. I already posted on the other thread, but it's probably buried under all the salt already. I normally don't respond to dev posts so I hope you take my views and opinions as constructive feedback and not criticism.

As I was working through my thoughts, I compared these proposed changes to how it would affect our current day to day operations and surprisingly didn't see too many differences between what we do now and what you are proposing.

But the biggest issue I see is that these changes are not moving the responsibility from the FC to the fleet, instead it's putting more risk on the Scout (Which is already tough enough). With the fleet warp changes, the Scout would now have to warp to the target so the FC can fleet warp.
- This in itself is not a bad thing, but just makes life a little harder and WH space is already pretty hard.

Currently we have a system of sharing Bookmarks with other corporations and this takes considerable time and skill to do effective (imagine sharing bookmarks for a chain with 6 wormholes). Once bookmarks are shared, we typically still need to Fleet warp because of the "populate" issue. However if the target is not a "public" signature (pos, wreck, ship, safe spot, etc...) then this will require fleet members to warp themselves.
- Again, this is not that big of a deal. We are wormholers' and are elite :). But effectively you just killed whoever warps first. When you have a mix fleet of ships like interceptors and battleships you typically want to warp as a whole to land everyone at once. But when you self warp that will not happen and just Imagine being the BS who lands last and half his fleet has already been blaped.

-- My original post --
Quote:
I'm having a hard time putting words to how I feel about these changes.

I suppose the first thing that should be mentioned is that I'm a wormhole citizen. So all my opinions are all based in the context of living and working in Wormhole space.

Fleet members in WH corporations already work very hard...
Wormhole space is hard, I like it that way. My corp effectively spends hundreds of hours every week scanning for content and when content is found, our scouts bookmark routes and any celestials or wrecks near that content.

With your proposed changes, this will have very little affect on our day to day operations. But it's just another nuisance that we will add to the list.

Will your changes fix the current issue of Bookmarks taking up to several minutes to populate?
Currently when we share bookmarks with other corporations, we effectively still have to fleet warp because waiting for bookmarks to populate can be the death of us or whoever we are trying to help.

Lastly
I already pay way too much for this game then I care to admit, but the changes you "CCP" are proposing makes it feel like not much thought has been given to Wormhole life.

Seriously, I challenge you to live in a Wormhole for a month.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#34 - 2015-06-12 06:55:27 UTC
hey, bonus I just realised. You won't have a squad warp at a much lower speed than it's squad member's peak warp velocity due to some clown having a BS in squad. This will help your squad get onto grid way before your idiotic 2009 player in the BS or armour ship, allowing you to gank everything before he even lands or locks anything.
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-06-12 07:11:35 UTC
There are a couple issues with proposed change:

1. Large corporations will have even more advantage over allliances made of smaller corporations, as there are no alliance bookmarks. Corps can just make a bookmark and warp their fleet there. Alliances will have to rely on warpins. It is true not only for PVP but for getting new wormhole bookmarks fast or moving somone into/out of a wormhole. Obvious solution here is to introduce alliance bookmarks first.

2. It will be harder for someone who is multiboxing in wormholes. You often rely on squad warps in order to do evey day activities.

I suspect this change is more about nerfing bombers than anything else. Well then solution is to nerf bombers not fleet warps.

I feel that With the change less organized and smaller entities will suffer more than bigger and more organized, especially in wspace.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Farendall
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-06-12 07:22:28 UTC
I think a lot of people have/will cover/ed all the bad points of this so I wont waste your time with a lengthy explanation of why this is a bad idea.

- 1
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-06-12 07:25:44 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
hey, bonus I just realised. You won't have a squad warp at a much lower speed than it's squad member's peak warp velocity due to some clown having a BS in squad. This will help your squad get onto grid way before your idiotic 2009 player in the BS or armour ship, allowing you to gank everything before he even lands or locks anything.


There is the flip side of that. Blapping all the smaller assets that warp faster because enemy logi still hasn't entered the grid yet. poor fast tacklers. my heart goes out to you.

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Thornir
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-06-12 07:43:31 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Goonbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better


Could you just once give us an improvement with this CSM you've gotten, other then rotten news, how about telling us what you plan to do about this. Or do you just not care?

FC? Hello. Warp to me! I am here!

wazp1
The Tarzan Foundation
#39 - 2015-06-12 08:00:16 UTC
just copy past my self from the other one
Quote:

I have not seen the o7 show yet but:
I dont see any point doing this, must be one of the most stupid changes in Eve.
As if you are doing that change are you then doing:

Alliance Bookmarks
Increase corp bookmarks
Increase update freq on corp and now the New alliance bookmarks that make sure everyone in Corp/alliance have that bookmark as when in mostly whs not everyone can see the bookmark before its to late and therefore fleet /Wing / squad warp

#where is the Wh Csm on this?
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#40 - 2015-06-12 08:14:17 UTC
The three biggest issues I see with this change which are a day to day thing. Most of these apply to groups who run with more than just 1 corporation.

1.
If you have multiple corps either from being in an alliance or on a joint op, when your going down the chain, especially if its a long chain currently you fleet warp or provide a warp in to the WH, fleet warping is preferred since you don''t have to worry about the character ahead getting caught and this while annoying I could get used to just continually warping to someone to get the chain I haven't bookmarked, it will just require more scouts all the time.

2.
If your warping into a hostile fleet, this is the worst part of the change in my opinion. Currently we can fleet warp either directly into the hostile fleet or at a tactical spot and then warp down to engage them, this relies on just the fleet commander having the bookmark because often if your running in an alliance or with multiple groups then not everyone is going to have the bookmark because you bookmark so much **** in wormholes (CCP please try living out of WH's for once). After the change this is going to resort in either getting a scout at the position which if its tactical is no problem but if your warping directly to the WH no scout is going to put himself 2km away from the entire hostile fleet and their bubblers. So we'll have to resort to WAITING for the bookmarks to propogate, thank you CCP for FORCING us to wait even longer now for any chance to have some decent PvP.

3. When your going to kill some site runners, when I kill site runners who are on their own I either warp to my scout alt or fleet warp using my scout out (obviously with warp with fleet turned off) to the enemy at zero either by bookmark I made or with probes. Having to warp to my scout alt means I have to get my scout alt dangerously close, and because of the changes you CCP have made to Wormholes almost everyone scans with Covops not T3's because of frigate holes and the importance to scan quickly given how easy it is to spot new holes. If your going to kill an escalation fleet (which is actually hard if the site runners put an ounce of effort into defending themselves), then a usual thing to do is for the bubblers to be switched to a squad where the commander is the scout, scout then fleet warps the bubblers to the hostile fleet either through probes or a bookmark, and given how hard it can be (and time consuming) for a scout to manually pilot close to the enemy fleet (which is very dangerous because of the all the objects in sites) and the amount of time it consumes, giving the hostiles more time to extract once they IMMEDIATELY spot the new sig appearing. You are just making site running even safer, which is not something we want!

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