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Changes to data gathering

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Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-06-16 18:02:14 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
[quote=Sgt Ocker][quote=CCP Snorlax]
We're simply forwarding any warnings and errors in logs so that we can see them without you having to run LogServer and send us your logs. What exactly gets logged evolves over time - when tracking down bugs we often add logging to help us narrow the issues down. I hope that will be more effective now as we see logs from more players.

You can run with LogServer attached to see what is sent to us - the warnings and errors show up as yellow and red.

It is hard for us to guarantee that nothing will ever show up in logs that can be viewed as personally identifiable information, hence the disclosure.

Keep in mind that this only applies to our test servers and the intent is to help us improve the quality of the EVE client. If you feel this is too much of a risk, we're sorry not be able to accommodate you on our test servers.


For example: If I get no errors I do not know what is logged in errors if my only source is to run the logserver until they occur.
I doubt anyone is very bothered if a small snippet of info such as first name (via file path) is captured; or what time the error occured giving away our gaming habits. What I would be concerned about is the log server capturing info about other running processes.
[Made up statistic:]99% of us would be more than happy to help in this goal too. BUT I would like to know what the logserver is capable of capturing, i.e a full list.
For example: -
File paths of client files or core .dat files
client up time
cpu % load
image name of other running processes
RAM usage of other processes
host file contents
etc etc etc

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#22 - 2015-06-16 19:47:13 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
For example: If I get no errors I do not know what is logged in errors if my only source is to run the logserver until they occur.
I doubt anyone is very bothered if a small snippet of info such as first name (via file path) is captured; or what time the error occured giving away our gaming habits. What I would be concerned about is the log server capturing info about other running processes.
[Made up statistic:]99% of us would be more than happy to help in this goal too. BUT I would like to know what the logserver is capable of capturing, i.e a full list.
For example: -
File paths of client files or core .dat files
client up time
cpu % load
image name of other running processes
RAM usage of other processes
host file contents
etc etc etc


^This. Honestly if I could upvote this by a trillion, I would.

With the recent hack of the US government's HR department (United States Office of Personnel Management) I have concerns.


Big concerns.


I want to know what kind of data you're logging, and what might be considered PII, and why you'd even consider mining that information from me. Especially through a third party without any guarantee that data won't get "lost".

Take a step back and think about this one CCP. The possibility, no matter how remote, of gaining someone's PII with a blurb in the forums and no details about what your third party is logging/mining throws a huge wrench into anyone helping on the test server in the future.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Radgette
EVE Irn Bru Distribution
#23 - 2015-06-17 16:46:45 UTC
I need to access Sisi to practice for the AT but as others have stated I want to know from you, as it's you requesting the access, exactly what PII you will be gleaning from my machine before i accept anything.

Persec is pretty important to me and i'm not about to accept something without properly defined parameters on what you can and can't look at.
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 - 2015-06-18 10:14:04 UTC
We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that.

The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.


  • We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
  • We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
  • We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
  • We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.


If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines).

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#25 - 2015-06-19 00:44:19 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that.

The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.


  • We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
  • We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
  • We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
  • We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.


If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines).



Still, this is a huge no-go for me as there isn't much detail and the whole "We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information." thing .... if you can't, or won't, tell us what PII you "might" end up mining, then why should I do anything with the test server?

It's not that difficult to come clean with good, solid, information.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-06-19 05:25:45 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
CCP Snorlax wrote:
We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that.

The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.


  • We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
  • We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
  • We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
  • We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.


If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines).



Still, this is a huge no-go for me as there isn't much detail and the whole "We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information." thing .... if you can't, or won't, tell us what PII you "might" end up mining, then why should I do anything with the test server?

It's not that difficult to come clean with good, solid, information.
If I'm honest this is perfectly fine with me, I couldn't give a toss if they glean file paths because I don't ever use my real name on computers anyway. Ip w/e it's a communal one anyway. Memory use of the client, again w/e. And finally I'm almost certain the only thing I have that is python is eve anyway. So long as the list is accurate then I don't mind.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2015-07-05 23:56:30 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that.

The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.


  • We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
  • We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
  • We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
  • We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.


If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines).

I would be satisfied with this being linked in the popup, or included in the popup as a lengthy "I have read and understand" type of thing. "LogServer" makes sense to me, I've run it before, and sent the results to you in a couple Issues, Workarounds & Localization threads.

I've also ended up with gigabytes of LogServer errors, so hey good luck, keep up the good work, and have fun.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Ether Mayaki
Ethereal Beings
#28 - 2015-07-06 03:56:21 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
CCP Snorlax wrote:
We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that.

The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.


  • We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
  • We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
  • We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
  • We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.


If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines).



Still, this is a huge no-go for me as there isn't much detail and the whole "We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information." thing .... if you can't, or won't, tell us what PII you "might" end up mining, then why should I do anything with the test server?

It's not that difficult to come clean with good, solid, information.


It's not like CCP already has a database entry of all the associated PI with your account from registration to credit cards. If you're paranoid enough to provide a fake name and billing address during registration, you probably shouldn't be online to start with.

That being said I think collecting metrics on folder locations and better info on the game client can only lead to improvements.

AND

It's not like they tried to hide the data collection from us. They could of easily started collecting without the popup. But they went and made sure to be polite and tell us.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#29 - 2015-07-08 16:44:32 UTC
I once logged into a jabber chat room to be greeted by several people addressing me by my first name, much to my chagrin. Turns out the jabber client was sending them my computer's "name" and listing it in public view every time I logged in.

That sort of personally identifiable information.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#30 - 2015-07-08 22:50:18 UTC
Ether Mayaki wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:
CCP Snorlax wrote:
We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that.

The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.


  • We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
  • We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
  • We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
  • We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.


If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines).



Still, this is a huge no-go for me as there isn't much detail and the whole "We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information." thing .... if you can't, or won't, tell us what PII you "might" end up mining, then why should I do anything with the test server?

It's not that difficult to come clean with good, solid, information.


It's not like CCP already has a database entry of all the associated PI with your account from registration to credit cards. If you're paranoid enough to provide a fake name and billing address during registration, you probably shouldn't be online to start with.

That being said I think collecting metrics on folder locations and better info on the game client can only lead to improvements.

AND

It's not like they tried to hide the data collection from us. They could of easily started collecting without the popup. But they went and made sure to be polite and tell us.

I think you missed the point some are concerned over. Most players know and are happy for "CCP" to have certain information, they are just not comfortable with that information being collected and used by an unknown 3rd party.

CCP were smart about this, they would be aware there is chance for misuse of collected data - The little popup removes any liability from CCP - They "warned" you the data was being collected and given to an unknown party.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Velarra
#31 - 2015-08-23 00:34:03 UTC
Much of this sounds vaguely logical yet there's a small problem with all of it:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/about-the-boot.ini-issue/

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2007/12/eve-online-trinity-borks-windows-deletes-boot-ini

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/eve-kills-windows-dead

Oh and lets not forget the recent old school downtime event and its related blog.

...

CCP, 'love your game. But there are some things you historically and obviously can't be trusted with.
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#32 - 2015-09-05 16:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyranis Marcus
....

Do not run. We are your friends.
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