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CSM - Singularity, not Tranquility, is the test server.

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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1 - 2015-06-09 00:51:08 UTC
Hello CSM.

There are many good and bad parts about the new 6 week patch cycle. New graphics, new ship models, new mechanics, module tiericide; these are all really good things. Sometimes a feature, like the new map, is released with a beta option on Tranquillity, such that normal game play is not interrupted by feature iteration. This makes perfect sense as Tranquillity is not the place for wholesale feature testing. However, recently, the overview icons were drastically changed despite overwhelming negative feedback on the test server forums, with no such beta feature on Tranquillity. it is the strong opinion of this poster and many more that Tranquillity is not the place to test interface changes, and any and all such changes on Singularity which are met with overwhelmingly negative feedback or suggestions for future iterations should either not be ported to Tranquillity, or done so with the option of using the old iteration, as was done with the map. Test server players are some of the most dedicated players, it seems odd to ignore their feedback.

I realize these things may or may not be within the powers of the CSM, But I feel as if 59/60 pages of the Carnyx release feedback could have been avoided quite easily if only our voices were being heard. Interface changes that are rejected by a majority of the testers, at the very least, as well as future interface changes, needs to have a beta option should it be ported to Tranquillity. The CSM is elected to represent the players, and in this case, the players are upset and have a general opinion on this matter - what are you doing to represent this?

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2015-06-09 01:01:37 UTC
Every change is met with negative feedback, we are all a bit too set in our ways.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#3 - 2015-06-09 02:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
1) what makes you think the csm did not object in the begning?

2) CCP doenslt HAVE to listen to or do anything the players or CSM say. This is CCP's game. Remember that,.

3) Maybe instead of whining that the icons need to roll back, you can get screen shots and submit evidence or you know, feed back, so the issue can be addressed or proven instead of whining.

4) CCP is more likly to listen to proof that it is causing you problems and fix said issue VS whining that 'whaaaaa change is bad!'

5) HTFU

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#4 - 2015-06-09 04:01:32 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
1) what makes you think the csm did not object in the begning?

2) CCP doenslt HAVE to listen to or do anything the players or CSM say. This is CCP's game. Remember that,.

3) Maybe instead of whining that the icons need to roll back, you can get screen shots and submit evidence or you know, feed back, so the issue can be addressed or proven instead of whining.

4) CCP is more likly to listen to proof that it is causing you problems and fix said issue VS whining that 'whaaaaa change is bad!'

5) HTFU


There's page after page of people who have entire lists of good complaints, especially the fact that the designer didn't even know that people play with a scaled UI, and the icons do not translate well at all to this - that alone is telling volumes. It's that CCP hasn't even responded to 70 pages that is concerning; where is the CSM?

http://i.imgur.com/k9md0GX.png
Can you honestly tell me on a crowded screen, you can actually tell a frigate from a drone? I don't believe you. I used to be able to read a grid and distinguish ships and drones...I can't now.

CCP is not listening to 70 pages, or at least hasn't responded sufficiently, why should I assume they will listen to one more voice? That's why I am asking specifically for the CSM; where are they on this? They are supposed to represent the players, and I know a lot of players that are noticeably upset about this change.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#5 - 2015-06-09 04:30:15 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Every change is met with negative feedback, we are all a bit too set in our ways.


Depends a lot on your play style.

It's not testament, but I would think some of us are going to be impacted way more than others. A small amount of perusing through our respective character histories reveals an average of 218 attackers/kill for you. I have an average of 4.85. This is a real pain in the arse to people trying to read in a smaller fight.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-06-09 16:30:15 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Hello CSM.

There are many good and bad parts about the new 6 week patch cycle. New graphics, new ship models, new mechanics, module tiericide; these are all really good things. Sometimes a feature, like the new map, is released with a beta option on Tranquillity, such that normal game play is not interrupted by feature iteration. This makes perfect sense as Tranquillity is not the place for wholesale feature testing. However, recently, the overview icons were drastically changed despite overwhelming negative feedback on the test server forums, with no such beta feature on Tranquillity. it is the strong opinion of this poster and many more that Tranquillity is not the place to test interface changes, and any and all such changes on Singularity which are met with overwhelmingly negative feedback or suggestions for future iterations should either not be ported to Tranquillity, or done so with the option of using the old iteration, as was done with the map. Test server players are some of the most dedicated players, it seems odd to ignore their feedback.

I realize these things may or may not be within the powers of the CSM, But I feel as if 59/60 pages of the Carnyx release feedback could have been avoided quite easily if only our voices were being heard. Interface changes that are rejected by a majority of the testers, at the very least, as well as future interface changes, needs to have a beta option should it be ported to Tranquillity. The CSM is elected to represent the players, and in this case, the players are upset and have a general opinion on this matter - what are you doing to represent this?



like there isnt already 6 million threads on this topic plus one offical

Special Snowflake

IBTL

but to make this thread not a total waste

heres a platypus snuggleing

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-06-10 17:43:04 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Every change is met with negative feedback, we are all a bit too set in our ways.



Based on some of the issues brought up, there's a problem with seeing the icons. So one of the major issues is with the basic ability to see the game elements.
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-06-10 17:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Joia Crenca
DaReaper wrote:
1) what makes you think the csm did not object in the begning?

2) CCP doenslt HAVE to listen to or do anything the players or CSM say. This is CCP's game. Remember that,.

3) Maybe instead of whining that the icons need to roll back, you can get screen shots and submit evidence or you know, feed back, so the issue can be addressed or proven instead of whining.

4) CCP is more likly to listen to proof that it is causing you problems and fix said issue VS whining that 'whaaaaa change is bad!'

5) HTFU




I've seen a couple of CSM members post, but I didn't get the impression that they were doing much but waiting for CCP to say something.

Why have the CSM if they're going to be so unused? Much like asking people to participate in SiSi testing, then disregarding their input, it gets discouraging enough that 'HTFU' involves 'GTFO and go to another game' where you aren't tricked into being treated badly.

"HTFU" will have to be exported to Elite or Star Citizen if we "HTFU" enough in regards to CCPs missteps. Because there won't be an EVE left to 'harden up' within. (And that expression has been so misused that I now look at is as a way to identify trolls more than anything else.)

Finally, folks have submitted screenshots and bug reports and the like. You'd missed all of that action, apparently.
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-06-10 18:06:35 UTC
Dradis Aulmais wrote:



like there isnt already 6 million threads on this topic plus one offical

Special Snowflake

IBTL

but to make this thread not a total waste

heres a platypus snuggleing



The topics touch on the current issue, but the question relating to the presence of the CSM is relevant. Also, to add more to why the 'system' needs to function well, here's what the effect has been on the game:

TuCZnak wrote:
Looking at the data from eve-offline, it seems like EVE has lost 10% of active players based on login count since the deployment of Carnyx.

And looking at the Dotlan statistics, if we compare statistics for the first 10 days of June and first 10 days of May, there are:

15k less highsec kills
12k less lowsec kills
16k less nullsec kills

4M less highsec jumps
700k less lowsec jumps
1,5M less nullsec jumps

All these statistics amount to roughly 15% loss of active players, varying slightly by region. So 10% of players don't login anymore and additional 5% went from playing to ship spinning.


A pretty decent amount of damage done to activity. This is NOT good for the long term presence of EVE/CCP.

When people can't see as well, they tend to not play as much, or they'll play a game that doesn't cause a headache and eye-strain simply from the act of participating.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#10 - 2015-06-10 20:24:00 UTC
I think it's pretty telling about our current CSM.

Ideally a CSM would be able to relate to the average player of the game, but given that a majority of the CSM were 'picked' rather than elected, and those types tend to play jabber online, or play the game at such a different scale than lots of us, we really don't see the outrage as much.

Maybe after Fozzie sov does some more destabilization of powerblocks, we can see an actual CSM election rather than a picking, and get actual players voicing actual player opinions.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#11 - 2015-06-10 20:29:53 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
1) what makes you think the csm did not object in the begning?

2) CCP doenslt HAVE to listen to or do anything the players or CSM say. This is CCP's game. Remember that,.

3) Maybe instead of whining that the icons need to roll back, you can get screen shots and submit evidence or you know, feed back, so the issue can be addressed or proven instead of whining.

4) CCP is more likly to listen to proof that it is causing you problems and fix said issue VS whining that 'whaaaaa change is bad!'

5) HTFU


There's page after page of people who have entire lists of good complaints, especially the fact that the designer didn't even know that people play with a scaled UI, and the icons do not translate well at all to this - that alone is telling volumes. It's that CCP hasn't even responded to 70 pages that is concerning; where is the CSM?

http://i.imgur.com/k9md0GX.png
Can you honestly tell me on a crowded screen, you can actually tell a frigate from a drone? I don't believe you. I used to be able to read a grid and distinguish ships and drones...I can't now.

CCP is not listening to 70 pages, or at least hasn't responded sufficiently, why should I assume they will listen to one more voice? That's why I am asking specifically for the CSM; where are they on this? They are supposed to represent the players, and I know a lot of players that are noticeably upset about this change.


yes in that picture you posted i have zero issues telling what is a drone and whats a frig. like stupid easy. its not that hard. or if you have issues.. remove drones from overview, and shoot the frig. problem sovled

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#12 - 2015-06-10 20:39:37 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
I think it's pretty telling about our current CSM.

Ideally a CSM would be able to relate to the average player of the game, but given that a majority of the CSM were 'picked' rather than elected, and those types tend to play jabber online, or play the game at such a different scale than lots of us, we really don't see the outrage as much.

Maybe after Fozzie sov does some more destabilization of powerblocks, we can see an actual CSM election rather than a picking, and get actual players voicing actual player opinions.




Oh FFS. The CSM is not 'picked' they were elected. This is like saying that because the two parties in the us are the only viable canidates that they are picked. No, the parties or in this case, alliances, rally around a canidate. Its how humans work.

second, ir doenst matter who the **** is on the csm, they could be ALL goons. Why? because the csm as ZERO power. None, noda, zip, ziltch.


The CSM is the equivlant to a coucil of advisors to the supereme dictator. They don;t Repersent you. They are mearly an organization that gathers data and feed back and reports it to ccp. Its a way to condence 500k voices into 12. The csm is a check on ccp, but a weak one. And more of a way to gage the community. The CSM's job is to report to ccp. Thats it. They don;t owe you anything. Because they are not poting publicly or in a way you agree with doesn;t mean jack crap. They not only have more information then you, but no power. CCP could of said "we do not care what the community thinks, the icons stay, end of discussiton' and the csm will go 'alight lord ccp." and thats it.

You seem to be under the illution that the csm is suppose to report back to you all the dealing of ccp. Or that if the csm all agree that the icons suck that ccp will go 'well gee... sorry, lets fix that' not how it works.

The icons are here to stay. post bug reports, and get used to them. Because unless ccp and ccp alone decides to change them, and they most likly won;t as there is no issue with them once you learn how to view them and get used to change, they are not going anywhere. So get used to them, or post bug reports for issues. in other words.. HTFU

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#13 - 2015-06-10 20:41:09 UTC
Joia Crenca wrote:
Dradis Aulmais wrote:



like there isnt already 6 million threads on this topic plus one offical

Special Snowflake

IBTL

but to make this thread not a total waste

heres a platypus snuggleing



The topics touch on the current issue, but the question relating to the presence of the CSM is relevant. Also, to add more to why the 'system' needs to function well, here's what the effect has been on the game:

TuCZnak wrote:
Looking at the data from eve-offline, it seems like EVE has lost 10% of active players based on login count since the deployment of Carnyx.

And looking at the Dotlan statistics, if we compare statistics for the first 10 days of June and first 10 days of May, there are:

15k less highsec kills
12k less lowsec kills
16k less nullsec kills

4M less highsec jumps
700k less lowsec jumps
1,5M less nullsec jumps

All these statistics amount to roughly 15% loss of active players, varying slightly by region. So 10% of players don't login anymore and additional 5% went from playing to ship spinning.


A pretty decent amount of damage done to activity. This is NOT good for the long term presence of EVE/CCP.

When people can't see as well, they tend to not play as much, or they'll play a game that doesn't cause a headache and eye-strain simply from the act of participating.



Eve offline proves nothing. except less people on at periods of time. CCP and CCP alone will decide what to do with the icons. get used to them

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#14 - 2015-06-10 20:43:30 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
1) what makes you think the csm did not object in the begning?

2) CCP doenslt HAVE to listen to or do anything the players or CSM say. This is CCP's game. Remember that,.

3) Maybe instead of whining that the icons need to roll back, you can get screen shots and submit evidence or you know, feed back, so the issue can be addressed or proven instead of whining.

4) CCP is more likly to listen to proof that it is causing you problems and fix said issue VS whining that 'whaaaaa change is bad!'

5) HTFU


There's page after page of people who have entire lists of good complaints, especially the fact that the designer didn't even know that people play with a scaled UI, and the icons do not translate well at all to this - that alone is telling volumes. It's that CCP hasn't even responded to 70 pages that is concerning; where is the CSM?

http://i.imgur.com/k9md0GX.png
Can you honestly tell me on a crowded screen, you can actually tell a frigate from a drone? I don't believe you. I used to be able to read a grid and distinguish ships and drones...I can't now.

CCP is not listening to 70 pages, or at least hasn't responded sufficiently, why should I assume they will listen to one more voice? That's why I am asking specifically for the CSM; where are they on this? They are supposed to represent the players, and I know a lot of players that are noticeably upset about this change.


yes in that picture you posted i have zero issues telling what is a drone and whats a frig. like stupid easy. its not that hard. or if you have issues.. remove drones from overview, and shoot the frig. problem sovled



No, removing drones from overview is not a solution, it is important to see where drones are on the field. A casual perusing of your killboard reveals that basically, you do not PvP really unless you are an alt, in which case please post with your main. Reading in an entire grid now is exceptionally difficult when things are moving, crowded, and time sensitive.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#15 - 2015-06-10 20:52:19 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
1) what makes you think the csm did not object in the begning?

2) CCP doenslt HAVE to listen to or do anything the players or CSM say. This is CCP's game. Remember that,.

3) Maybe instead of whining that the icons need to roll back, you can get screen shots and submit evidence or you know, feed back, so the issue can be addressed or proven instead of whining.

4) CCP is more likly to listen to proof that it is causing you problems and fix said issue VS whining that 'whaaaaa change is bad!'

5) HTFU


There's page after page of people who have entire lists of good complaints, especially the fact that the designer didn't even know that people play with a scaled UI, and the icons do not translate well at all to this - that alone is telling volumes. It's that CCP hasn't even responded to 70 pages that is concerning; where is the CSM?

http://i.imgur.com/k9md0GX.png
Can you honestly tell me on a crowded screen, you can actually tell a frigate from a drone? I don't believe you. I used to be able to read a grid and distinguish ships and drones...I can't now.

CCP is not listening to 70 pages, or at least hasn't responded sufficiently, why should I assume they will listen to one more voice? That's why I am asking specifically for the CSM; where are they on this? They are supposed to represent the players, and I know a lot of players that are noticeably upset about this change.


yes in that picture you posted i have zero issues telling what is a drone and whats a frig. like stupid easy. its not that hard. or if you have issues.. remove drones from overview, and shoot the frig. problem sovled



No, removing drones from overview is not a solution, it is important to see where drones are on the field. A casual perusing of your killboard reveals that basically, you do not PvP really unless you are an alt, in which case please post with your main. Reading in an entire grid now is exceptionally difficult when things are moving, crowded, and time sensitive.




thats mostly due to you not being used to things, your memory is looking for the old icons, thus the new ones will be confusing. i have pvped, and this is my main, 11 years noobins. i LIKE the new iocons, both in pve and pvp as well as running a pos i can actually tell what the hell stuff is. But you don;t, no big deal, they are here to stay till ccp changes them. might as well start getting used to them

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-06-10 23:19:34 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Truncated



Eve offline proves nothing. except less people on at periods of time. CCP and CCP alone will decide what to do with the icons. get used to them


You're saying that a company that ignores the customer and the fact that the customer has other choices, is going to be here a while?

We, the customers/players, have caused CCP to right their course before, by voting with our collective wallet. And we had folks that claimed we couldn't do that.

It'd be sad if that didn't happen this time, because the end result does NOT include a few remaining players keeping CCP afloat while too many subscriptions die. And staunch defenders of 'CCP shouldn't listen to players' will not be recognized, just in case there was a hope of some kind of reward out there for them.
General Xenophon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-06-11 21:09:31 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Every change is met with negative feedback, we are all a bit too set in our ways.


Some worse than others.

The time spent changing things like icons and maps could be spent investing in things that actually need fixing.
General Xenophon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-06-11 21:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: General Xenophon
-.- It's not too much to ask that a 'beta' map be on a test server.

Also, for the icons, just make it an option for folks to have one or the other. If its just a UI thing, it just saves us all the headache of the rage / debate of it. Then those who like it, use it, those that don't, well, don't.
Jayne Fillon
#19 - 2015-07-07 16:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayne Fillon
The only real suggestion I have is to keep submitting bug reports and post in the forums threads relevant to the topic that concerns you. If something really bothers you, mail the CSM directly - every mail we receive is discussed. As for feedback from the CSM specifically, we give CCP a ton of feedback on a wide variety of topics, sometimes our concerns are heeded and our advice taken, other times it's ignored. However, even when CCP does heed ours or player's advice, with this new 6 weeks cycle, the completion date and release date can sometimes be only a week apart. A good example of this is the icon changes, as you mention.

Furthermore, there are certain aspects of Eve's development that cannot be tested on Singularity prior to release. A good example of this is the new sov system. Even with the Duality Wargames having gone on for three weeks, CCP is hesitant to make changes to the system based on the meta that evolved on Duality. With 100isk ships and modules, combat is not the same. Player density is not the same. Logistics is not the same. It could potentially lead to an issue where you balance a feature for singulariy or duality specifications, but the content falls flat on Tranquility. Coming back to the ship icons, I personally really liked them, until I got horribly confused in my first large fleet fight on TQ.

TL;DR - I understand where you're coming from, but Singularity and Tranquility have differences that must be respected. That being said, the majority of stuff can and should be tested on Singularity first, but it's up to those testers to post comments and file bug reports so that the developers can actually see the feedback.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.