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Matari T1 Redux
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Scath Bererund
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-06-15 02:20:16 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
I'm surprised no one mentioned anything about the Loki yet. Is it good, okay, bad or what?


IMHO the loki is about the only T3 done right, it can output nice dps, tank nicely and fit it's own specialist system (the long webs)

BUT

unlike some of the other T3s it can only really do 1 of them at a time. you have to pick it's role with it's subs and build it round that
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#42 - 2015-06-15 03:59:55 UTC
Scath Bererund wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
I'm surprised no one mentioned anything about the Loki yet. Is it good, okay, bad or what?


IMHO the loki is about the only T3 done right, it can output nice dps, tank nicely and fit it's own specialist system (the long webs)

BUT

unlike some of the other T3s it can only really do 1 of them at a time. you have to pick it's role with it's subs and build it round that


Ty, wasn't sure if it'd be wasted SP to plug it into the skill queue or not.
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#43 - 2015-06-15 14:19:34 UTC
Loki is decent, but definitely not great. It lacks firepower and projection compared to other T3s. The main thing it has going for it is the long webs and as an instalock alpha camper.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2015-06-15 21:14:14 UTC
Save the rust buckets! Minmatar slot layout is basically unusable. That fix alone would help enormously. +1

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-06-16 01:04:20 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stuff


My guns might still shoot, but my tackle will be turned off. Without a web, a cruiser with sig radius of 140 before links will still be able to sig tank my guns. Try again plz. Incoming "acs track fine without tackle". Sorry but acs dont have blaster tracking cupcake.

So if you have a backup ship full of CB how exactly does your hype run out of CB against a single neut vexor? You mean you just made up a scenario that fit your arguement? You, moving goal posts? No way. That never happens.

Apparently they didnt listen to you. You didnt want acs buffed at all. Said they were "fine". So CCP actually listened to everyone who wanted the buff in the thread. They split the difference.

Think im done turding up this thread with our bickering, youll just keep derailing and moving goal posts in the discussion. So its pretty much futile to continue.




So they did buff the AC's? Word is that they still suck? They used to be so good, wonder when they gotten to be so bad?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#46 - 2015-06-16 12:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Daniela Doran wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stuff


My guns might still shoot, but my tackle will be turned off. Without a web, a cruiser with sig radius of 140 before links will still be able to sig tank my guns. Try again plz. Incoming "acs track fine without tackle". Sorry but acs dont have blaster tracking cupcake.

So if you have a backup ship full of CB how exactly does your hype run out of CB against a single neut vexor? You mean you just made up a scenario that fit your arguement? You, moving goal posts? No way. That never happens.

Apparently they didnt listen to you. You didnt want acs buffed at all. Said they were "fine". So CCP actually listened to everyone who wanted the buff in the thread. They split the difference.

Think im done turding up this thread with our bickering, youll just keep derailing and moving goal posts in the discussion. So its pretty much futile to continue.




So they did buff the AC's? Word is that they still suck? They used to be so good, wonder when they gotten to be so bad?


Med ACs are the weapon of choice if you don't have grid for Artillery. ACs are also by quite a margin still the most pathetic weapon system with selectable damage at 0m and exp/kin lock outside of spitting range.

The issue aren't ACs in general, it's the medium ones in particular that somehow manage to be universally worse than any alternative weapon system you could think of.

Coincidentally, the minmatar hulls that somehow manage are sleipnir, loki, muninn and cynabal, and then fleet scythe, claymore for missiles and arguably the cyclone is decent as a mixed weapon platform given you have all the SP in the world. Solo-Sleipnir aside (100mn battle-soap, dual XLASB, double CB + SB), they all use 720s or missiles.

Ed: Lokis are dominantly used as supertanked armor-huggins, so they might even not fit any guns at all (iE fit 180s) to get two plates going.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#47 - 2015-06-16 15:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stuff


My guns might still shoot, but my tackle will be turned off. Without a web, a cruiser with sig radius of 140 before links will still be able to sig tank my guns. Try again plz. Incoming "acs track fine without tackle". Sorry but acs dont have blaster tracking cupcake.

So if you have a backup ship full of CB how exactly does your hype run out of CB against a single neut vexor? You mean you just made up a scenario that fit your arguement? You, moving goal posts? No way. That never happens.

Apparently they didnt listen to you. You didnt want acs buffed at all. Said they were "fine". So CCP actually listened to everyone who wanted the buff in the thread. They split the difference.

Think im done turding up this thread with our bickering, youll just keep derailing and moving goal posts in the discussion. So its pretty much futile to continue.




So they did buff the AC's? Word is that they still suck? They used to be so good, wonder when they gotten to be so bad?


Med ACs are the weapon of choice if you don't have grid for Artillery. ACs are also by quite a margin still the most pathetic weapon system with selectable damage at 0m and exp/kin lock outside of spitting range.

The issue aren't ACs in general, it's the medium ones in particular that somehow manage to be universally worse than any alternative weapon system you could think of.

Coincidentally, the minmatar hulls that somehow manage are sleipnir, loki, muninn and cynabal, and then fleet scythe, claymore for missiles and arguably the cyclone is decent as a mixed weapon platform given you have all the SP in the world. Solo-Sleipnir aside (100mn battle-soap, dual XLASB, double CB + SB), they all use 720s or missiles.

Ed: Lokis are dominantly used as supertanked armor-huggins, so they might even not fit any guns at all (iE fit 180s) to get two plates going.


Pretty much this. ACs took a big hit after TE nerf, which the funny thing is, the TE nerf was for the damn blaster shield talos. Not minny ships so much. In the original thread for TE nerf, people were saying they were going to ruin acs.. and it was more of a problem with large blasters+null range. Look what happened, acs are garbage in quite a few cases. Instead of just nerfing the talos, they nerfed an entire module which caused a domino effect on ac application. The one module that minmatar was built around, since they had the extra lows to take advantage of it. In typical CCP fashion, they nerfed the module and didnt adjust the base stats of medium ac to compensate. That is why we had a threadnaught earlier in the year to buff base ac range by 10-15%, instead we got 7.5%.

Then CCP started buffing a lot things and things got faster. Minmatar are not as fast as they used to be, but still have mostly ****** tanks. Coupled with the already low dps of med acs and fighting strictly in falloff means my vagabond with THREE range mods, barely does more than 350dps at point range, with barrage. It can fall under 300dps with faction ammo. So my 550dps, 200-300m vagabond has turned into a very expensive svipul. Things like the vaga dont compete well against ishtars, orthrus, garm, deimos, inties etc. Ive stopped flying the vaga because it just cant project dps to kill things without yourself being killed in a solo role. Or cant kill things fast enough before youre blobbed. If you brawl with it, it will never do more dps or tank more than a deimos. So its kind of futile. Yes it can work, but its still pretty subpar unless you fit crystals and a pimped booster. Then youre spending a bill for what the deimos can do with a couple hundred mil.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#48 - 2015-06-16 15:33:14 UTC
The Loki is probably the second best armor T3. Better than the legion, not as good as the proteus overall.
Nihta
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2015-06-16 16:44:23 UTC
IDK about dis. Minnie Dessies are super good. No one doubts the Talwar/Thrasher. The Tornado is great. Scythe Fleet, Scythe are both excellent cruisers, the scythe fleet is not as stacked as a Nomen but versatility of missiles makes up for it IMO. Plus it can fit an actualy tank and not cap out the instant the fight lasts more than 3 shots.

Hurricane... Been soloing in one. It went better than my normal solo attempts is about all I can say. Flew a tempest as an Armor fleet E-war/DPS boat. Worked great with all those mids. 2 unitiliy heavy neuts, heavy cap booster, scram, prop and a sensor damp seems good enough to me. Lows were 2 Gyro, 1600, 2 EANM, DCII. Trimark/Explo rigs.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2015-06-16 23:10:33 UTC
addition to the OP

Quote:
also the gallente and matari PG / CPU profile seems a bit backwards.

the way the PG and CPU profile works with now

Ammar - best grids worst CPU--- armor tanked, reasonable
Minmatar- second best grids second worst CPU --- shield tanked, WTF
Gallente- second worst comps second best CPU ---- armor tanked, WTF
Caldari- worst grids, best comps --- makes perfect sense.

I think Minmatar and gallente should switch PG and CPU profiles assuming the grid requirements for arty become something in the realm of sanity.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-06-17 12:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stuff


My guns might still shoot, but my tackle will be turned off. Without a web, a cruiser with sig radius of 140 before links will still be able to sig tank my guns. Try again plz. Incoming "acs track fine without tackle". Sorry but acs dont have blaster tracking cupcake.

So if you have a backup ship full of CB how exactly does your hype run out of CB against a single neut vexor? You mean you just made up a scenario that fit your arguement? You, moving goal posts? No way. That never happens.

Apparently they didnt listen to you. You didnt want acs buffed at all. Said they were "fine". So CCP actually listened to everyone who wanted the buff in the thread. They split the difference.

Think im done turding up this thread with our bickering, youll just keep derailing and moving goal posts in the discussion. So its pretty much futile to continue.




So they did buff the AC's? Word is that they still suck? They used to be so good, wonder when they gotten to be so bad?


Med ACs are the weapon of choice if you don't have grid for Artillery. ACs are also by quite a margin still the most pathetic weapon system with selectable damage at 0m and exp/kin lock outside of spitting range.

The issue aren't ACs in general, it's the medium ones in particular that somehow manage to be universally worse than any alternative weapon system you could think of.

Coincidentally, the minmatar hulls that somehow manage are sleipnir, loki, muninn and cynabal, and then fleet scythe, claymore for missiles and arguably the cyclone is decent as a mixed weapon platform given you have all the SP in the world. Solo-Sleipnir aside (100mn battle-soap, dual XLASB, double CB + SB), they all use 720s or missiles.

Ed: Lokis are dominantly used as supertanked armor-huggins, so they might even not fit any guns at all (iE fit 180s) to get two plates going.


Pretty much this. ACs took a big hit after TE nerf, which the funny thing is, the TE nerf was for the damn blaster shield talos. Not minny ships so much. In the original thread for TE nerf, people were saying they were going to ruin acs.. and it was more of a problem with large blasters+null range. Look what happened, acs are garbage in quite a few cases. Instead of just nerfing the talos, they nerfed an entire module which caused a domino effect on ac application. The one module that minmatar was built around, since they had the extra lows to take advantage of it. In typical CCP fashion, they nerfed the module and didnt adjust the base stats of medium ac to compensate. That is why we had a threadnaught earlier in the year to buff base ac range by 10-15%, instead we got 7.5%.

Then CCP started buffing a lot things and things got faster. Minmatar are not as fast as they used to be, but still have mostly ****** tanks. Coupled with the already low dps of med acs and fighting strictly in falloff means my vagabond with THREE range mods, barely does more than 350dps at point range, with barrage. It can fall under 300dps with faction ammo. So my 550dps, 200-300m vagabond has turned into a very expensive svipul. Things like the vaga dont compete well against ishtars, orthrus, garm, deimos, inties etc. Ive stopped flying the vaga because it just cant project dps to kill things without yourself being killed in a solo role. Or cant kill things fast enough before youre blobbed. If you brawl with it, it will never do more dps or tank more than a deimos. So its kind of futile. Yes it can work, but its still pretty subpar unless you fit crystals and a pimped booster. Then youre spending a bill for what the deimos can do with a couple hundred mil.


The TE nerf eh. I googled and just discovered what it really was. This happened when I took a long absence from eve in 2013. Back in 2012 Medium AC's were at the top of the food chain for the most powerful weapon system with the Sleipnir wearing the crown as the most feared ship in all of eve. So when I came back in 2014, I started all over and built another char around Medium Projectiles (mainly targeting the Sleipnir) thinking they were still great.....sigh how little I knew of the change. But for the most part it seems the Sleipnir withstood the test of time and is still consider good (not great anymore).

Back then in 2012 medium rails were garbage and now look how good they've become, can't tell if eve is Evolving or Devolving.

Anyways it seems that CCP did buff the medium arties a bit as back then they were utter trash so I'll start using the 720's on the Sleipnir when my other main max out CS 5 next week. Vagabond also used to really good along with the Sacrilege. But unlike the Sleip it doesn't have the grid to fit arties...sigh. Well hopefully CCP would hold another thread discussion on the AC's rebalance as things just can't continue for Minnie like this.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#52 - 2015-06-17 12:31:43 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stuff


My guns might still shoot, but my tackle will be turned off. Without a web, a cruiser with sig radius of 140 before links will still be able to sig tank my guns. Try again plz. Incoming "acs track fine without tackle". Sorry but acs dont have blaster tracking cupcake.

So if you have a backup ship full of CB how exactly does your hype run out of CB against a single neut vexor? You mean you just made up a scenario that fit your arguement? You, moving goal posts? No way. That never happens.

Apparently they didnt listen to you. You didnt want acs buffed at all. Said they were "fine". So CCP actually listened to everyone who wanted the buff in the thread. They split the difference.

Think im done turding up this thread with our bickering, youll just keep derailing and moving goal posts in the discussion. So its pretty much futile to continue.




So they did buff the AC's? Word is that they still suck? They used to be so good, wonder when they gotten to be so bad?


Med ACs are the weapon of choice if you don't have grid for Artillery. ACs are also by quite a margin still the most pathetic weapon system with selectable damage at 0m and exp/kin lock outside of spitting range.

The issue aren't ACs in general, it's the medium ones in particular that somehow manage to be universally worse than any alternative weapon system you could think of.

Coincidentally, the minmatar hulls that somehow manage are sleipnir, loki, muninn and cynabal, and then fleet scythe, claymore for missiles and arguably the cyclone is decent as a mixed weapon platform given you have all the SP in the world. Solo-Sleipnir aside (100mn battle-soap, dual XLASB, double CB + SB), they all use 720s or missiles.

Ed: Lokis are dominantly used as supertanked armor-huggins, so they might even not fit any guns at all (iE fit 180s) to get two plates going.


Pretty much this. ACs took a big hit after TE nerf, which the funny thing is, the TE nerf was for the damn blaster shield talos. Not minny ships so much. In the original thread for TE nerf, people were saying they were going to ruin acs.. and it was more of a problem with large blasters+null range. Look what happened, acs are garbage in quite a few cases. Instead of just nerfing the talos, they nerfed an entire module which caused a domino effect on ac application. The one module that minmatar was built around, since they had the extra lows to take advantage of it. In typical CCP fashion, they nerfed the module and didnt adjust the base stats of medium ac to compensate. That is why we had a threadnaught earlier in the year to buff base ac range by 10-15%, instead we got 7.5%.

Then CCP started buffing a lot things and things got faster. Minmatar are not as fast as they used to be, but still have mostly ****** tanks. Coupled with the already low dps of med acs and fighting strictly in falloff means my vagabond with THREE range mods, barely does more than 350dps at point range, with barrage. It can fall under 300dps with faction ammo. So my 550dps, 200-300m vagabond has turned into a very expensive svipul. Things like the vaga dont compete well against ishtars, orthrus, garm, deimos, inties etc. Ive stopped flying the vaga because it just cant project dps to kill things without yourself being killed in a solo role. Or cant kill things fast enough before youre blobbed. If you brawl with it, it will never do more dps or tank more than a deimos. So its kind of futile. Yes it can work, but its still pretty subpar unless you fit crystals and a pimped booster. Then youre spending a bill for what the deimos can do with a couple hundred mil.


With 3 range mods, Is the damage projection at short range still crippling even if you use hail?
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