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Rat aggression swaps in pvp situations.

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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#21 - 2015-06-06 04:13:50 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Or you could go find someone to fight that isn't in a ship you can effortlessly blap with or without the NPC's presentation.

You don't get to be immune to the environment, sorry. You want to hunt people in dangerous places, fit accordingly.


Except it didn't make things even, it made things completely in the pve players favour. The Pve Player only needs to tank the rats or the player. The pvp player needs to tank the rats and the player. The pve player also only needs the rats ewar to hit once to get away, and will have any rat webs/neuts helping them as well. The PvP player already needs to fly a ship able to penetrate hostile space (i.e. fast and therefore light) and use fitting space for a point, while the pve player only needs to tank long enough for the cavalry to arrive. So to have any chance of success the pvper needs to fit lots of damage, lots of mobility and a point, but now they also need to fit lots of tank and counter ewar for the stockholm syndrome rats.

To be fair the rat aggro would be random, or more obviously the rats would take the opportunity to gtfo (in belts at least).

Personally I think some standing related mechanic on the part of the rats would be very cool, have good standing to the rats in question and they wont attack you over the ratter who will likely have terrible standing.

And who else is there to fight exactly? The only time any 0.0 kiddies fly in groups of less than 10 is when they rat.


I don't know who you would fight. Maybe those groups of 10 with some friends? Maybe find some solo hunter like yourself? Mount up and go crash some gate camps.

You aren't looking for a fight, you are looking for a kill. I hear Noctis salvagers are easy to pop in high sec. Well, ok... I got popped in seconds in high sec in my noctis. It will teach me to not store my unused salvage in it. The thing popped like a Christmas pinata for CODE.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-06-06 06:23:51 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Or you could go find someone to fight that isn't in a ship you can effortlessly blap with or without the NPC's presentation.

You don't get to be immune to the environment, sorry. You want to hunt people in dangerous places, fit accordingly.


Except it didn't make things even, it made things completely in the pve players favour. The Pve Player only needs to tank the rats or the player. The pvp player needs to tank the rats and the player. The pve player also only needs the rats ewar to hit once to get away, and will have any rat webs/neuts helping them as well. The PvP player already needs to fly a ship able to penetrate hostile space (i.e. fast and therefore light) and use fitting space for a point, while the pve player only needs to tank long enough for the cavalry to arrive. So to have any chance of success the pvper needs to fit lots of damage, lots of mobility and a point, but now they also need to fit lots of tank and counter ewar for the stockholm syndrome rats.

To be fair the rat aggro would be random, or more obviously the rats would take the opportunity to gtfo (in belts at least).

Personally I think some standing related mechanic on the part of the rats would be very cool, have good standing to the rats in question and they wont attack you over the ratter who will likely have terrible standing.

And who else is there to fight exactly? The only time any 0.0 kiddies fly in groups of less than 10 is when they rat.


I don't know who you would fight. Maybe those groups of 10 with some friends? Maybe find some solo hunter like yourself? Mount up and go crash some gate camps.

You aren't looking for a fight, you are looking for a kill. I hear Noctis salvagers are easy to pop in high sec. Well, ok... I got popped in seconds in high sec in my noctis. It will teach me to not store my unused salvage in it. The thing popped like a Christmas pinata for CODE.


Im actually looking to make it intersting, if i bring in a confessor or svipul vs that plexing ishtar i get a enjoyable fight and a good killmail. However i need to time it so that i land with all rats beeing almost dead for it to work. So in 99% of the cases ill get an orthrus or machariel or 100mn tengu, go in and blap without any sort of difficulty.
Iain Cariaba
#23 - 2015-06-06 17:03:03 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Or you could go find someone to fight that isn't in a ship you can effortlessly blap with or without the NPC's presentation.

You don't get to be immune to the environment, sorry. You want to hunt people in dangerous places, fit accordingly.


Except it didn't make things even, it made things completely in the pve players favour. The Pve Player only needs to tank the rats or the player. The pvp player needs to tank the rats and the player. The pve player also only needs the rats ewar to hit once to get away, and will have any rat webs/neuts helping them as well. The PvP player already needs to fly a ship able to penetrate hostile space (i.e. fast and therefore light) and use fitting space for a point, while the pve player only needs to tank long enough for the cavalry to arrive. So to have any chance of success the pvper needs to fit lots of damage, lots of mobility and a point, but now they also need to fit lots of tank and counter ewar for the stockholm syndrome rats.

To be fair the rat aggro would be random, or more obviously the rats would take the opportunity to gtfo (in belts at least).

Personally I think some standing related mechanic on the part of the rats would be very cool, have good standing to the rats in question and they wont attack you over the ratter who will likely have terrible standing.

And who else is there to fight exactly? The only time any 0.0 kiddies fly in groups of less than 10 is when they rat.


I don't know who you would fight. Maybe those groups of 10 with some friends? Maybe find some solo hunter like yourself? Mount up and go crash some gate camps.

You aren't looking for a fight, you are looking for a kill. I hear Noctis salvagers are easy to pop in high sec. Well, ok... I got popped in seconds in high sec in my noctis. It will teach me to not store my unused salvage in it. The thing popped like a Christmas pinata for CODE.


Im actually looking to make it intersting, if i bring in a confessor or svipul vs that plexing ishtar i get a enjoyable fight and a good killmail. However i need to time it so that i land with all rats beeing almost dead for it to work. So in 99% of the cases ill get an orthrus or machariel or 100mn tengu, go in and blap without any sort of difficulty.


Yeah, cause landing a D3 on a ship incapable of fighting back makes for elite PvP. "Oh, they put drones on me!!!" Switch to propulsion mode and simply outrun the drones... yeah, that's an enjoyable fight. Roll

As stated previously, you're not looking for fights, you're looking for easy kills. If you were looking for fights, you wouldn't be targeting ratters. Fighting ratters is like walking onto a playground and pushing a 4 year old girl off the swing set, with just about as much challenge, and pretty much the same result.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-06-07 08:25:17 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Or you could go find someone to fight that isn't in a ship you can effortlessly blap with or without the NPC's presentation.

You don't get to be immune to the environment, sorry. You want to hunt people in dangerous places, fit accordingly.


Except it didn't make things even, it made things completely in the pve players favour. The Pve Player only needs to tank the rats or the player. The pvp player needs to tank the rats and the player. The pve player also only needs the rats ewar to hit once to get away, and will have any rat webs/neuts helping them as well. The PvP player already needs to fly a ship able to penetrate hostile space (i.e. fast and therefore light) and use fitting space for a point, while the pve player only needs to tank long enough for the cavalry to arrive. So to have any chance of success the pvper needs to fit lots of damage, lots of mobility and a point, but now they also need to fit lots of tank and counter ewar for the stockholm syndrome rats.

To be fair the rat aggro would be random, or more obviously the rats would take the opportunity to gtfo (in belts at least).

Personally I think some standing related mechanic on the part of the rats would be very cool, have good standing to the rats in question and they wont attack you over the ratter who will likely have terrible standing.

And who else is there to fight exactly? The only time any 0.0 kiddies fly in groups of less than 10 is when they rat.


I don't know who you would fight. Maybe those groups of 10 with some friends? Maybe find some solo hunter like yourself? Mount up and go crash some gate camps.

You aren't looking for a fight, you are looking for a kill. I hear Noctis salvagers are easy to pop in high sec. Well, ok... I got popped in seconds in high sec in my noctis. It will teach me to not store my unused salvage in it. The thing popped like a Christmas pinata for CODE.


Im actually looking to make it intersting, if i bring in a confessor or svipul vs that plexing ishtar i get a enjoyable fight and a good killmail. However i need to time it so that i land with all rats beeing almost dead for it to work. So in 99% of the cases ill get an orthrus or machariel or 100mn tengu, go in and blap without any sort of difficulty.


Yeah, cause landing a D3 on a ship incapable of fighting back makes for elite PvP. "Oh, they put drones on me!!!" Switch to propulsion mode and simply outrun the drones... yeah, that's an enjoyable fight. Roll

As stated previously, you're not looking for fights, you're looking for easy kills. If you were looking for fights, you wouldn't be targeting ratters. Fighting ratters is like walking onto a playground and pushing a 4 year old girl off the swing set, with just about as much challenge, and pretty much the same result.


Thats what piracy is in this game though, the skill is in the hunt and not in the kill. Rat mechanics are stupid and counterintutive. They ought to be adjusted.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#25 - 2015-06-07 09:19:19 UTC
The game is a sandbox. Piracy is what you make of it.

Your actions in your hunting reflect on your personal character. It's true that EVE is a great social experiment. Consider what you are saying about yourself when you set about having fun at the expense of others because it's cheap and easy.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#26 - 2015-06-07 10:30:05 UTC
Maybe you should get good and fly something bigger than a frig then (hint: fly a Cruiser)

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#27 - 2015-06-07 15:13:13 UTC
i dont mind that you hunt ratters. Despite what mike voidstar says, who you are in this game does not betray some underlying personality. im just laughing at you for saying its too hard and you need NPC help.

You can adapt in multiple ways:-
- Get friends.
- Upsize your ship.
- Find easier targets in weaker sites.
- Wait until the sites almost finished.

You could even learn to excel at bumping and learn to tackle targets without a mod. But the bottom line is, rats hate logi and e-war just like players hate logi and e-war.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-06-07 19:37:06 UTC
So i either blob, gank or dont engage?

Killing pvers isnt hard, never was, never will be. Its not about making something easy, its about pve content making quit a few ships totally unsuited for the job due to rat aggro changes that were uncalled for in their current fashion making piracy in general have a stupid entry requirment.




And lol, "learn to tackle by bumping ..." . If one sentence could summarize the laughing stock that is highsec pvp this would be it.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#29 - 2015-06-07 22:43:40 UTC
It really is about making it easy.

You want to be able to fit a light tank and all gank, and let the rats kill your victim for you. I have seen it done with a ship without guns at all, just a point and some neuts to shut down their tank.

There are other fights to be had. Try hunting the other guys just like yourself. At the very least stop claiming some special skill or any kind of challenge in it.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-06-08 00:54:43 UTC
Consider this, let's change the rats to something else. A cosmic storm, similar to one found in missions. Constantly raining down damage into ships in vicinity.

I particularly remember an old WT that sat in a vargur and when I probed him down in a stealth bomber, the clouds popped me.

What is the point here? It's the environment. Rats are practically as much a part of the environment as the players, and it is a consideration needed to be checked before you dive in. Not every ship will work in every scenario.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#31 - 2015-06-08 13:17:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
So i either blob, gank or dont engage?

Killing pvers isnt hard, never was, never will be. Its not about making something easy, its about pve content making quit a few ships totally unsuited for the job due to rat aggro changes that were uncalled for in their current fashion making piracy in general have a stupid entry requirment.


Right tool for the job bub. Welcome to EVE.

and btw, cruisers arent exactly high entry, nor are friends, nor is waiting till the rat aggro is manageable.

W0lf Crendraven wrote:

And lol, "learn to tackle by bumping ..." . If one sentence could summarize the laughing stock that is highsec pvp this would be it.


too much effort for you?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-06-08 13:33:38 UTC
I know how we should fix that, make the NPC always shoot at every capsuler in the site no matter how many of them. That way it's fair. The NPC help and hinder everybody. No free lunch for anyone.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-06-08 16:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Thats stupid though, the pveer is trying to kill the rats, the priate is trying to safe them.


Also, i know why they changed it (it was due to people using a tanky ship first and using a max gank ship with 0 tank second) but its a bad change.



Actually...if pirate NPC's had navies that responded like empire factions you might just find the pirates would attack regardless.


Years of 0.0 ratting and empire mission running has me in an interesting spot. Against any damn near any pirate faction my actions against them would be classified as genocidal at this point.

Blood rats fight new player to the out of empire life. have him 4 months in. They see me....6+ years of mowing them down. I could see all military bearing go out the window and they'd say bring that man down...now.

That and lets be honest, if the rats had thought and feelings...they'd be thinking is the guy going to wipe us next? Good question to ponder. I know some wh'ers this was how they "farmed" wh's. Let some poor schmuck or a few of them run the whole site almost to the end.... take them out, kill final sleepers and take the loot. The enemy of their enemy wasn' t their friend. The enemy of their enemy was doing pve the smart way....let the other guy bust his ass then just take the fruits of their labors.
Ben Ishikela
#34 - 2015-06-18 13:06:34 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5828821#post5828821
maybe solution.
---
TLDR
-PVE needs to fit points.
-if there is a pvp situation its basicly without any npc aggro at all for neither party.
-pve will be quicker and harder.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#35 - 2015-06-18 13:18:01 UTC
drone agression? why just drone?
parallel thread for same issue:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=430344
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-06-18 22:15:55 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
drone agression? why just drone?
parallel thread for same issue:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=430344


Mistype, meant basicely pve rats.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#37 - 2015-06-19 10:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Daichi Yamato wrote:

nor is waiting till the rat aggro is manageable.



lol
you've ever been involved in ratter hunting? I mean EVER? Seriously.
You need tons of luck to get grab on ratter before he warps out to POS/Station and docks up with neutral in local.
Who the heck would wait for rat aggro to diminish? You do it at first chance or he's gone.

This proposal can only come from a person who doesnt have a slightest idea about the matter.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-06-19 10:37:15 UTC
still not a broken system
welcome to sleeper AI 'lite'



droneboat pilots are very familiar with it workings
and have adapted their gameplay to accommodate it

you too get the same choices
- Adapt
- Die







nb
the NPCS are not your "friends"
they do not like you
they want to kill you too

congratulations on making their job easy
I look forward to reviewing more of your lossmails
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2015-06-19 10:51:10 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
still not a broken system
welcome to sleeper AI 'lite'


it is. broken.

Kitty Bear wrote:
droneboat pilots are very familiar with it workings
and have adapted their gameplay to accommodate it

you too get the same choices
- Adapt
- Die

there is no real way to adapt, except of well, not doing it.
I dont know anyone left who still hunts ratters solo, because its waste of time and doesnt work anymore - due to stupid rat aggro change.



Kitty Bear wrote:

nb
the NPCS are not your "friends"
they do not like you
they want to kill you too

congratulations on making their job easy

they arent your friend either, so why would they protect you? Doesnt compute.

Kitty Bear wrote:
I look forward to reviewing more of your lossmails

which lossmails?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#40 - 2015-06-19 11:58:52 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
they arent your friend either, so why would they protect you? Doesnt compute.




They aren't protecting anyone.

These are not civilians looking for a rescue. Depending on the rats they are supposed to be Slavers, Nihilistic Cultists, Terrorists or a huge conglomerate of crime syndicates---all of whom were engaged in doing nefarious deeds when the ratter showed up and started attacking them. Then another capsuleer showed up and started shooting the ratter with even more dangerous weaponry judging from both the Ewar and the fact that the Ratter is taking rather alarming amounts of damage. So they make the call to kill the guy with the more dangerous weaponry in the hopes that when he is gone the ratter will be damaged enough to either be quickly killed or leave on his own.

That AI also does not keep to the same targets for very long, even in the presence of Ewar, or drone users would have gone back to quietly afk mission running, which they can't do anymore as the NPC's just love to eat drones constantly no matter what Ewar you put on the field. Back before I gave up on drones I tried using scramblers to hold agro, along with reps and all the other ewar options. They switch pretty often, especially to drones.