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Dev Blog: New SKINS This Summer

First post
Author
Damen Apol
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#61 - 2015-06-04 22:44:05 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
I'm laughing at all these self entitled posters who basically don't give a toss about the quality of the universe and the IP, and their basic argument is CCP should implement because they want it, no matter what the reasons are.

I would say having gigantic black holes in a ship; and an ishukone ship not looking like ishukone ship, yet still being called ishukone and displaying their emblem, are pretty good reasons not to release these.


"self-entitled" people are asking to have a product modified before they'll buy it. They're not asking for it for free. People throw around that word without having any idea what it means. If anything, CCP are acting self-entitled for expecting us to buy a product we've explicitly had disagreements with and found a preferable solution.

Quality of the universe? The whole thing is supposed to be run by psychopathic murderous immortal demi-gods. We're literally insane for the most part, you think we give a rats ass about visually appealing ships? Maybe we want something as ugly and twisted as we are. How's that for lore? Ships with as much variety as capsuleers, some ships are pretty some are bright and shiny some are grimdark others have no logic to their color scheme and are visually unappealing etc.

Here's a sandbox but you have to play it the way I want you to play it, your sandcastles have to follow these specific art styles.

Frankly I don't even care that much about ship skins. I might buy one or two if I really liked the layout and it worked like it did with that unintended feature, but I'm not touching them with this model.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#62 - 2015-06-04 23:07:46 UTC
I was hoping to see some changes based on the pages and pages and threads full of completely ignored feedback about how the SKIN system should have been designed. Not all this singular SKINs for singular hulls stuff.

And when you say 2 SKINs for Caldari and Minnie, do you mean 2 individual SKINs for 2 specific hulls, or do you mean 2 families of SKINs for a variety of hulls?

Really should have been a SKIN module slot that you could put SKINs onto whatever ships, and each SKIN would fit for multiple ships either by race or by ship class, instead of having to buy a SKIN for each individual hull. This would also more easily have applied to the day (if it ever comes) where corps can have a corp SKIN... cause with your wondrous SKIN system they would have to have a SKIN for each and every single hull variation, and hopefully they wouldn't have to buy each one.

Also, who cares if a T1 ship has the same colors as a T2 ship? Thats like saying if a player ship has the same SKIN as an NPC ship it would lead to confusion. Or if a player ship had the same icon as a NPC ship, oh wait... But seriously, if someone is basing their gameplay decisions on the color of the ship is playing the game 2000% the wrong way, and would die in a fire no matter what color any of the ships were.

And can we get any metrics on how the purchasing of SKINs from the NEX has gone since the price/infinite use changes? Or like if anyone has bought one of the $35 frigate SKINs yet?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#63 - 2015-06-04 23:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Damen Apol wrote:
"self-entitled" people are asking to have a product modified before they'll buy it. They're not asking for it for free..

I'm talking about the people who are writing off all of the concerns that CCP Fox Four mentioned in the devblog, which seem like completely reasonable and valid concerns to me.

Dangeresque Too wrote:
Also, who cares if a T1 ship has the same colors as a T2 ship? Thats like saying if a player ship has the same SKIN as an NPC ship it would lead to confusion.

I believe the gist of the argument was to suggest that the T2 designs would lose their uniqueness if their patterns were available on other ships. Particularly as some of the ships have almost identical hulls.

Although I wonder if this would be the case for pirate faction ships also, as they should also retain their unique look, although I would like to see blood raider variants of some of the amarr ships for example.
Damen Apol
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#64 - 2015-06-04 23:32:26 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:
"self-entitled" people are asking to have a product modified before they'll buy it. They're not asking for it for free..

I'm talking about the people who are writing off all of the concerns that CCP Fox Four mentioned in the devblog, which seem like completely reasonable and valid concerns to me.


You mean the ones I addressed and you ignored?

That's leaving aside the fact that asking for a product to be a certain way has nothing to do with self-entitlement. If EVE was a free game you might have a point but you don't.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2015-06-04 23:38:00 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Please, PLEASE, make a sensible pricing structure.
X for Frigates,
Y for Battleships,
etc..

Having Frigates cost as much as Supers, and one BC costing more than 2 BC's and a BS, is just silly.. it's also out of line with other pricing structures in Eve, from say, LP stores. Navy BS's cost XYZ, they don't differ because a Navy Raven is more popular than say, a Navy Mega, thus it costs more LP.. No. The NES shouldn't be priced based on how popular you think a skin may be, or any other reasons that haven't been revealed. It should be laid out with a scaling pricing structure, along with the odd sales :)


Skin pricing is about permanence and rarity, not ship size. NES skins are permanent and therefore cost the same regardless of ship hull. The only pricing factor is rarity, which is simply an arbitrary choice by CCP to position some skins/corps as cheap and some as rare/exclusive/expensive. Any scaling is dependent on this and this alone.

Now that ship skins are independent from ship lifetime and usage, there's no reason for frigate skins to be cheaper than supercarrier skins. The ONLY input is CCP's scaling on which skins should be common and which not.

It has no correlation to blueprints because BP costs are dependent on the likelihood that a ship 1) is flown and 2) gets blown up. Frigates are meant to be fodder, so they are cheap to build with cheap BPs. People fly (and lose) them all the time for this very reason. The old frigate variant BPC's were cheap and plentiful because of this fact and the nature of skins being tied to actual ship hulls.

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#66 - 2015-06-04 23:53:08 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

On the cross racial stuff: It is something that could happen. Lore is not stopping us. Right now the reason it doesn't happen is performance and technical. To get faction SKINs to work properly cross race however would require basically remaking it and having the Quafe skin for Gallente and the Quafe skin for Caldari. That same effort could go into making new SKINs, which is what we have chosen to do at this time.

Victory Rattlesnake: Hopefully this summer, but no promise on that.


I'd MUCH rather see existing skins usable on everything than any new ones. Especially since I highly doubt the skins you guys are making are going to apply to ships I fly much since they seem to be so singularly targeted at single ships.

As far as pricing is concerned:

- All skins of the ship class need to cost the same
- I could support a price INCREASE but only if it applied to all ships of the same class. In other words drop the prices significantly enough for individual ship skins, that a bundle of say, every T1 amarrian frigate sounds reasonable. Right now, assuming you use the $20 AUR deal as a indication of AUR/USD ratio then pack of the cheapest skins would cost $22, and that's just 6 frigates. It should probably be more like a dollar each with the pack costing 5 as an incentive to buy a skin as a group.

- 6 frigates - $5 pack
- 2 destroyers - $3 pack
- 4 cruisers - $8 pack
- 3 BCs - $7 pack
- 3 BSes - $10
- 4 capitals (5 if counting freighter) - $16/20

Full race T1: $50 (53 if you used the packs separately)

THIS is where micro transactions are micro. Because if you make a handful of skins that work for ALL ships within a faction that has quite a bit of potential. If you wanted the skin to work for all factions that'd be $200 and that still sounds high when that doesn't include any faction ships (navy or pirate) or any T2 ships.

The idea of a corp or alliance wanting to have every member using a same skin is entirely blown out the window because full skins for every ship would cost the alliance more than a titan if you had only 20 members. And that's in my reduced pricing system. For that sort of thing mine still sound too high.

The counter to this is that people in a corp probably won't be all flying EVERY ship, but people do change roles a lot. So as it is right now, it's not worth it to me to buy any skins besides a couple for ships I know I use a lot and are my favorites.

The Drake is a Lie

Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
#67 - 2015-06-04 23:54:56 UTC
This is a simple direct question for the team developing skins:

When are you going to drop the skins and let the pilots customize their own ships?

All along we have been told that "skins" were sort of a trial thing to see if there really is interest and people were willing to pay for ship colors. I think that point has been proven, don't you?? I am tired of CCP dictating the limited range of colors that can be used!!!!!!EvilEvilEvil Where is my paint booth where I can take my ship into and paint it myself?? I have been hoping for something akin to the Paintbrush accessory program in windows. I don't want ridiculous colors like Hello Kitty pink but seriously, what the h3ll do you care anyway?? You can charge a fee every time I want to use it and the data should be telling you that sort of thing would mean a sh1tload of extra income. Come on already!!!!!! Give me, correction, give us the freedom you are always bragging about in your sales pitch (be the villain ; be the bodyshop) !!LolLol

CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#68 - 2015-06-05 00:29:11 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
...when you say 2 SKINs for Caldari and Minnie, do you mean 2 individual SKINs for 2 specific hulls, or do you mean 2 families of SKINs for a variety of hulls?

Really should have been a SKIN module slot that you could put SKINs onto whatever ships, and each SKIN would fit for multiple ships either by race or by ship class, instead of having to buy a SKIN for each individual hull. This would also more easily have applied to the day (if it ever comes) where corps can have a corp SKIN... cause with your wondrous SKIN system they would have to have a SKIN for each and every single hull variation, and hopefully they wouldn't have to buy each one.

Also, who cares if a T1 ship has the same colors as a T2 ship? Thats like saying if a player ship has the same SKIN as an NPC ship it would lead to confusion. Or if a player ship had the same icon as a NPC ship, oh wait... But seriously, if someone is basing their gameplay decisions on the color of the ship is playing the game 2000% the wrong way, and would die in a fire no matter what color any of the ships were.

And can we get any metrics on how the purchasing of SKINs from the NEX has gone since the price/infinite use changes? Or like if anyone has bought one of the $35 frigate SKINs yet?


The current plan is to have 4 families of SKINs (2 Caldari, 2 Minmatar) which will be available for a variety of hulls in the initial release.

The SKIN system you propose would be a tremendous amount of QA for each SKIN released. There is nothing stopping us in the future, once SKIN lines are more fleshed out, from selling a single SKIN that applies to multiple ships. Corp-wide SKINs will probably work slightly differently when it comes to the corp purchasing and activating a SKIN. The implementation on the user end would be the same as the current system. While you;re in the corp you have access to the active corp SKIN in your fitting window, or some variation of that.

We care if the ships are the same colour. EVE has enough complex and confusing systems without adding ships that look the same but are completely different. It's also a good form of future-proofing.

I can't give out any solid metrics on SKINs sales. However a cursory glace at the SKINs in Jita show sell orders for every SKIN I looked at, including all of the frigates.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters

Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#69 - 2015-06-05 00:37:50 UTC
I can't seem to find an example picture on the interwebs, I'll have to dig around to see if I took any pictures myself, but an old console mech combat game on the 360 called Chromehounds had an extremely awesome and simple mech painting system.

Pretty much you just selected a predefined pattern, and then chose a couple of pre-defined colors for the different parts of that pattern. I don't see why Eve can't try to work on something similar.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#70 - 2015-06-05 00:45:21 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
The SKIN system you propose would be a tremendous amount of QA for each SKIN released. There is nothing stopping us in the future, once SKIN lines are more fleshed out, from selling a single SKIN that applies to multiple ships. Corp-wide SKINs will probably work slightly differently when it comes to the corp purchasing and activating a SKIN. The implementation on the user end would be the same as the current system. While you;re in the corp you have access to the active corp SKIN in your fitting window, or some variation of that.
So if you haven't finished figuring out where you want to go with SKINs and are apparently still 'feeling out' the demand for it... why develop a new system that was completely opposite of anything that we had suggested in the many threads of feedback? You guys asked for our feedback, and then turned around and ignored all of it and released something nobody had asked for. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the entirety of the last several CCP started SKIN and/or ship color customization threads)

CCP Terminus wrote:
We care if the ships are the same colour. EVE has enough complex and confusing systems without adding ships that look the same but are completely different. It's also a good form of future-proofing.
Perhaps, but a lot of the players who actually use and interact with your game don't care if a T1 ship looks like a T2 ship... and they sure aren't flying a T2 ship instead of a T1 ship just because of the colors... or at least I don't know anyone in game that would take a T2 ship to a T1 fight because they liked the way the colors worked out.

CCP Terminus wrote:
I can't give out any solid metrics on SKINs sales. However a cursory glace at the SKINs in Jita show sell orders for every SKIN I looked at, including all of the frigates.
I'm not talking Jita sales, cause a lot of those are the ones that people spammed before you guys locked the NEX store before bringing the change in. I'm talking Aur purchases of the SKINs overall since the change, not ISK purchases.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-06-05 00:52:51 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Also, who cares if a T1 ship has the same colors as a T2 ship? Thats like saying if a player ship has the same SKIN as an NPC ship it would lead to confusion.

I believe the gist of the argument was to suggest that the T2 designs would lose their uniqueness if their patterns were available on other ships. Particularly as some of the ships have almost identical hulls.

Although I wonder if this would be the case for pirate faction ships also, as they should also retain their unique look, although I would like to see blood raider variants of some of the amarr ships for example.

T2 Ships are (slowly) getting their own Unique variants to the Hulls, so that should be a non-issue.
Sylveria Relden
#72 - 2015-06-05 00:58:04 UTC
Awesome work so far with the SKIN system- especially excited to see the new SOE variants. Thanks so much for the explanation of why particular patterns wouldn't work on certain ships as well. I had originally thought the same when I looked at how it would pattern a ship type.

Can't wait to see the new flavors coming out- will definitely spruce things up a bit in game.

Good work and keep em coming!

TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)

Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-06-05 01:04:46 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
...

I think what was shown during the bug period is, people are okay with the skins not being perfect right now.
Now I get there's some skins that caused performance issues, and those of course would need to be addressed at launch.. but I know I wouldn't mind having some glitches knowing that they will be addressed as time goes on. I mean I put a Quafe skin on everything I flew and had none that had any issues serious enough that I wouldn't fly it. Not saying there aren't skins with issues, but if you did a quick QA pass just to look for performance issues, then push em out and fix them later, I think most players would be fine with that.
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2015-06-05 01:14:42 UTC
Just give us what we want.
Not what you think we should want.

The entire player base has told you many different ways in many different venues and ways.


Make it happen, stop pushing your desires on the playerbase, we have enough of our own that arent being met
Memphis Baas
#75 - 2015-06-05 01:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
CCP Terminus wrote:
We care if the ships are the same colour. EVE has enough complex and confusing systems without adding ships that look the same but are completely different. It's also a good form of future-proofing.


ROFL! You guys took the color out of all the UI icons a few months back, forcing us to identify things based on shape alone, and now you're saying that the ships we never look at (because OVERVIEW) have to have different colors, otherwise "confusing complexity".
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#76 - 2015-06-05 02:14:46 UTC
Well as far as making sure T2 and T1 ships don't look the same, I think you need to make sure the ships have different geometry.

The Moa redo is an excellent example of this, even if they didn't have any textures you can tell the variants apart. other ships got left out, Cerberus doesn't have a separate model, and other ships like the Crane also lost their unique models some time ago. If that gets rectified, and ships differ by more than just a few thrusters and spikes, sharing a texture shouldn't be a problem.
Klyith
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2015-06-05 02:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Klyith
If I was to give one piece of feedback it'd be the prices, and how the current rates are pushing toward being extremely choosy about them. The money involved isn't "collectable" for most people, it's finding one or two they like most for their favorite ship. Mostly just looking & spinning in the viewer window.

But if I was asked for a second piece of feedback, it's that some skins are pretty underwhelming, particularly those on Minmatar ships. Now I realize that a glitzy paint scheme goes against everything the rust bucket stands for, but some are barely distinguishable from stock. Calling out the Vehriokor scheme in particular. Others have minimal contrast between colors, such that you need good lighting and a close look to appreciate them at all.

Skins are about putting some glitz on our ships, so please be a bit less restrained about the art. Gimme a stabber that's got hot rod flames or something. OK, maybe not that far. But wouldn't it be sweet though?

Yes I am asking for more psssshhhh.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2015-06-05 03:12:40 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Well as far as making sure T2 and T1 ships don't look the same, I think you need to make sure the ships have different geometry.

We're doing this as we can, but it has to happen slowly. We have a limited number of 3D modelers devoted to ships, it takes time for them to do their work well, and they have other tasks, too.

Having different geometry for T2 variants whenever possible is definitely our goal, though.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#79 - 2015-06-05 03:17:56 UTC
any chance to make the ship icons in your hangar update with the active skin colors?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#80 - 2015-06-05 03:44:51 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
any chance to make the ship icons in your hangar update with the active skin colors?

I would not hold my breath for this feature.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins