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PvE Cruise Golem - Needs 4 target painters for optimal application?!
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Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-06-03 02:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Chan
Disclaimer : Boredom + EFT = below

While doing missions with my Golem,I wondered just how many target painters I would want. Many builds included 2, some 3 but very few 4. My goal would be minimal ammo switching. With the annoyingly new markers, you can differentiate between battlecruisers/cruisers destroyer/frigates more easily.Granted nobody confused a dessie and frigate, but Angels have the same model for Battlecruisers and cruisers. Only their bounty told a different tale but who wants to look that up. Plus elite frigs reck drones and take awhile to kill.

Fit includes(Assumed all level 5):
+5 Guided Missile Precision implant
+5 Target Navigation Prediction
4x Republic Fleet Target Painter - Use of PWNAGE painters instead resulted in minimal application loss at the cruiser/frigate level. Use of domination painters resulted in negligable gains at the frigate level. Use of 5 painters increased application on frigate by~10%. Might save you a volley on some frigates.
2x Rigor II

So went to "http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=7&return_to=" and looked at Angel ships since they are generally the fastest with the smallest signature in missions(Named NPCs ignored). Tried to find the combination of smallest signature and fastest speeds for combat npcs of that ship size. The three sizes compared are Battleships, Cruisers and Frigates. Battlecruisers and destroyers were ignored since, furies pop them easy peasy but Battleships were added...just because? Please note it has been mentioned that some rats use MWD/AB, but being unsure which; I have left it out of my calculations.

Assume all calculations below are with all level 5 character.
Battleship:(320 signature/350 Speed) and replicated this in EFT with:

[Machariel, test]
Overdrive Injector System II
Domination Overdrive Injector
Republic Fleet Nanofiber Structure
Domination Overdrive Injector
Republic Fleet Nanofiber Structure
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

10MN Afterburner II

HIgh-Grade Halo Alpha and Beta
Mid-Grade Halo Gamma and Delta

Result: Perfect Application with Furies, Precision and T1/Faction.

Cruiser:(100 Signature/450 Speed) and replicated pretty close in EFT(100 Signature/451 Speed) with:
[Stabber Fleet Issue, test]
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Low-Grade Snake Alpha, Gamma and Delta

Result: Over 50% damage loss with Furies, 100% application with Precision and ~79% application with T1/Faction.

Frigate:(22 Signature(0.o)/900 Speed) and replicated pretty close in EFT(22 Signature/897 Speed) with:
[Claw, test]
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Type-D Restrained Overdrive Injector

High-grade Halo Alpha
Low-grade Snake Beta, Gamma, Delta and Epsilon
High-grade Snake Omega
Boost from Sleipnir + Skirmish Link - Evasive Manuevering(All 5 skill except Warlink specalist moved to 4)

Result: 5% application with Furies(lulz), 20% application with Precision and 11% application with T1/Faction.

Any thoughts or what I may have missed?

TL:DR : Got bored and EFT warrior'd. 2x rigor and 4x republic painters used for testing. Some cruisers and All Elite frigates shoot precision. For everything else rek(battleship, battlecruiser, destroyer, non elite frigates) dem with furies. 4x PWNAGE is good enough, Republic may occasionally save you a volley, Dominion may occasionally save you a volley but don't offer enough for dat price tag. Note this only applies with 4x painters, other variations not tested.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-06-03 03:28:22 UTC
Dont bring in new abbreviations, bb is blackbird, ca is the ca set and dd is the daredevil for 95% of eve and doomsday for the other 5%.
Ivan Badaruz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-06-03 04:27:35 UTC
okay signature radius is one thing, if your expl radius isnt bigger than the targets ship radius there wont be a dmg reduction because of that. but there is still the dmg reduction caused by the targets speed and your explosion velocity, maybe one Rigor and one Flare would be better?
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-06-03 04:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Chan
Ivan Badaruz wrote:
okay signature radius is one thing, if your expl radius isnt bigger than the targets ship radius there wont be a dmg reduction because of that. but there is still the dmg reduction caused by the targets speed and your explosion velocity, maybe one Rigor and one Flare would be better?

100% of my test cases put rigors over any combination with flare. However, in the case of mwd/ab rats having rigor/flare maybe better but was not tested.(computer is off and I'm going to bed. I might test it tomorrow but you could test it yourself. I provided all the necessary data to recreate my tests)

Edit: also my tests are based off the extremes of Angel rats. I still shoot furies at 99% of everything because I don't like changing ammo. If I hit something I tickle with a volley of furies I move on until I run out of stuff to rek with furies and then clean up with precision.

Also, before I hear use light drones against frigates. Yes that's an option but even with over 8 million sp in sub capital drones, I still kill faster with cruise missiles vs using unbonused drones.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-06-03 05:18:35 UTC
Cruise Golems make me sad. Your tank is stupid beastly in bastion. There is no need to engage at range being that you can tank pocket aggro like a boss.

Get in close and torpedo things until dead. The end.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#6 - 2015-06-03 05:23:46 UTC
afaik rigors are the best for PVE applications.

hmm might mean using tp/web drones might be the best option. Damage drones are pretty slow at killing npc frigs, there isn't really much else for them to be doing. on my paladin I usually let them deal with small stuff. in the Blockade I usually just shoot elite npcs and bs. dessys/bcs I let my drones deal with.

with the golem I typically only change ammo if there are a lot of elite cruisers. wonder what 100% precisions vs 79% faction dps ends up being? I typically just used faction, but its been a while. Although since that is angels it is pretty much worst case for a golem.

I think the optimal setup was 5 TPs, and with bastion that is rather manageable actually.

lastly, are these approach speeds, or orbit speeds?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#7 - 2015-06-03 05:24:33 UTC
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Cruise Golems make me sad. Your tank is stupid beastly in bastion. There is no need to engage at range being that you can tank pocket aggro like a boss.

Get in close and torpedo things until dead. The end.


if only torpedoes were worth using Cry

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-06-03 05:38:25 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Cruise Golems make me sad. Your tank is stupid beastly in bastion. There is no need to engage at range being that you can tank pocket aggro like a boss.

Get in close and torpedo things until dead. The end.


if only torpedoes were worth using Cry


...they... um... are. I'm absolutely destroying things in a Torp CNR ratting in my alliance sov. The Golem would be considerably better.
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-06-03 05:42:31 UTC
Can't...sleep....aaaarrrgggg.
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Cruise Golems make me sad. Your tank is stupid beastly in bastion. There is no need to engage at range being that you can tank pocket aggro like a boss.

Get in close and torpedo things until dead. The end.


Torp Golem makes me sad Sad. The damage is fine and dandy with Rage torps within ~43km. Unfortunately, very few rats start at that distance. If I'm did this math to avoid changing ammo, etc what makes you think I want to chase rats down and wave my torpedoes in their general direction Roll.

That said, with Rage torps you can get away with 4 painters and 2 range rigs vs battleships and battlecruisers. However, anything smaller then that and it's tech 1/faction/javelin for you. The damage with t1/faction is about ~10%/~20% better then fury cruise but won't apply for poop to cruisers/frigs. Atleast with cruise missiles I have the option of precision missiles, with Torpedoes? zzzzz unbonused drones.

Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
lastly, are these approach speeds, or orbit speeds?


Unfortunately I'm not sure, "http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=7&return_to=" does not specify approach/orbit speed. I'm assuming the orbit value listed there is how far from you they orbit.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-06-03 05:48:27 UTC
Amanda Chan wrote:
Can't...sleep....aaaarrrgggg.
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Cruise Golems make me sad. Your tank is stupid beastly in bastion. There is no need to engage at range being that you can tank pocket aggro like a boss.

Get in close and torpedo things until dead. The end.


Torp Golem makes me sad Sad. The damage is fine and dandy with Rage torps within ~43km. Unfortunately, very few rats start at that distance. If I'm did this math to avoid changing ammo, etc what makes you think I want to chase rats down and wave my torpedoes in their general direction Roll.

That said, with Rage torps you can get away with 4 painters and 2 range rigs vs battleships and battlecruisers. However, anything smaller then that and it's tech 1/faction/javelin for you. The damage with t1/faction is about ~10%/~20% better then fury cruise but won't apply for poop to cruisers/frigs. Atleast with cruise missiles I have the option of precision missiles, with Torpedoes? zzzzz unbonused drones.

Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
lastly, are these approach speeds, or orbit speeds?


Unfortunately I'm not sure, "http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=7&return_to=" does not specify approach/orbit speed. I'm assuming the orbit value listed there is how far from you they orbit.


Yeah, that's not my experience with the Torp Golem... at all. Frigs are easily killed by your drones (T2 rat-specific drones will kill off even elite frigs fairly easily). Put a TP on the frigate if its taking too long.

3 Rigors or 2 Rigors and Rocket Fuel Cache make range and damage application a non-issue. And no, you don't need 4 TPs to make it work. Like... at all. Rage torps are certainly better, but they are supposed to be. T1 torps are more than ok. You should be 3-4 volley'ing BS rats. BC's and non-elite cruisers are 2 volley'ed.

Sure, getting into range can be a PITA in certain missions. But, for the most part, getting into range does not take long. Given that mission warp-ins are in predictable/identical locations in each room, once you get into range... you never have to leave.
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-06-03 06:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Chan
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:

Yeah, that's not my experience with the Torp Golem... at all. Frigs are easily killed by your drones (T2 rat-specific drones will kill off even elite frigs fairly easily). Put a TP on the frigate if its taking too long.

Easily? Ish. Oh they'll kill them alright, but also run the risk of getting rek'd as well, leading to having to recall/redeploy. Which is fine, I'm just lazy.

3 Rigors or 2 Rigors and Rocket Fuel Cache make range and damage application a non-issue. And no, you don't need 4 TPs to make it work. Like... at all. Rage torps are certainly better, but they are supposed to be. T1 torps are more than ok. You should be 3-4 volley'ing BS rats. BC's and non-elite cruisers are 2 volley'ed.

That's CNR talk right there, Golem only has 2 rig slots. With 2 ranged rigs, even with 4x republic painters you won't apply 100% of a fury torpedo dmg to the angel rat. Which again, is fine because you're still applying ~77% of your damage before resists, which leads to not a big difference after resists. Doubtful it would save you a volley, which in the end is the most important factor when using missiles.

Sure, getting into range can be a PITA in certain missions. But, for the most part, getting into range does not take long. Given that mission warp-ins are in predictable/identical locations in each room, once you get into range... you never have to leave.

I agree that once you're in the right spot you don't have to leave. However, with cruise missiles as soon as you've loaded grid you're in that right spot. Torpedo isn't always the case, you'll have to putter on over. Again, it's not terrible but for ease of use/effectiveness. Cruise is in a pretty good place right now. I'm not saying torpedoes are bad, but take a little more work for not much more reward.

Ok. I also for poops and giggles tossed MWDs on all my targets and...I got to say Rigors > Flare in all cases still. A hilarious 78 dps(with the fit I was testing) against the Claw going at 6155 m/s using precision cruise. That's a volley of 626 damage before resists.....Give it an oh say 70% resist against that damage type.....188 dmg.......Shocked
Ivan Badaruz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-06-03 06:17:27 UTC
rigor is almost always better, did the math, best setups are double Rigor on Golem, and double Rigor + Flare on CNR, but the CNR projects dmg better than the Golem, except they both have fitted 2 target painters. then the golems bonused TPs makes it even again
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#13 - 2015-06-03 06:27:57 UTC
Amanda Chan wrote:

[Machariel, test]

10MN Afterburner II


Is that a typo, or did you really test against a battleship with a cruiser sized AB Shocked

If you want to hit frigates better you'll just have to use guns tbh... battleship sized missiles against frigates were never supposed to be a 1-shot blap, hence the signature difference and explosion velocity of them. It applies somewhat to guns also of course, but tracking beats explosion velocity as long as they are not under tracking.

Guns and missiles are different, with different good and bad sides. Missiles having the bad side of not applying well against smaller targets, but better than guns that can't track since they always hit (granted the ship isn't too fast of course).
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-06-03 06:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Chan
Kosetzu wrote:
Amanda Chan wrote:

[Machariel, test]

10MN Afterburner II


Is that a typo, or did you really test against a battleship with a cruiser sized AB Shocked

No, not a typo. I had to play musical modules to get your base ships in EFT to match the statistics of the rats provided in "http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=7&return_to="


If you want to hit frigates better you'll just have to use guns tbh... battleship sized missiles against frigates were never supposed to be a 1-shot blap, hence the signature difference and explosion velocity of them. It applies somewhat to guns also of course, but tracking beats explosion velocity as long as they are not under tracking.

Yes and No. With missiles I can pop the BS first, reduce incoming damage and kill pesky frigs later. With guns, I need to handle them sooner then later or they get under my tracking and drones will have to handle it later.

For PvE missiles can engage frigates at all ranges but even more effectively the closer you get to 40 km, so none of your painters miss.

For PvP, as per my example of shooting a MWD Claw, yes it's pretty terrible without webs + scrams to shut off MWD for better application.

Guns and missiles are different, with different good and bad sides. Missiles having the bad side of not applying well against smaller targets, but better than guns that can't track since they always hit (granted the ship isn't too fast of course).

That and much more Lol.In any case, I made this thread to double check my fact finding in the search of how to press f1-f5 and profit easier with the Golem in missioning.Bear
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-06-03 13:17:35 UTC
The fact I can't group painters makes me not like flying the golem. It's a complete chore.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#16 - 2015-06-03 15:37:08 UTC
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Cruise Golems make me sad. Your tank is stupid beastly in bastion. There is no need to engage at range being that you can tank pocket aggro like a boss.

Get in close and torpedo things until dead. The end.


if only torpedoes were worth using Cry


...they... um... are. I'm absolutely destroying things in a Torp CNR ratting in my alliance sov. The Golem would be considerably better.


The NPCs spawn so close together and predictably you can smartbomb the rats in anoms. Yea torps work but at that point and I'm pretty sure other weapons would work even better. In missions there are very few where the spawns are that convenient. If I have to change ammo anywhere near often I'm better off just using cruise, or better yet anything that doesn't use missiles.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
stoicfaux
#17 - 2015-06-03 17:08:09 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
A Golem with 4x PWNGE TPs, 2x Rigor I, and a 5% dmg implant is adequate for one shotting all T1 NPC cruisers with Fury: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4450779

NPCs MWDs do not cause sig bloom.

IME, gunships (e.g. Vargur) outperform Cruise Golems in missions.


Also, why not 5 TPs? http://eve.battleclinic.com/view_loadout.php?id=42705


edit: Rigor II > Flare II > Rigor I > Flare I

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#18 - 2015-06-03 19:57:32 UTC
The problem with torps right now is that for all of there projection and application issues, they don't have that much more benefit in terms of damage over cruise missiles to make them worth it. Sure, torps hit like a truck, but so do cruise missiles, enough to make the difference negligible while the drawbacks are hardly minor. Even when just looking at the number of salvos either weapon takes to kill rats, torps just don't outshine cruise missiles very often, and certainly not enough to make up for all of the limitations torps have compared to cruise missiles. Basically, cruise missiles right now are essentially where pre-nerf heavies were.

Torps still work, they just require a lot more work for a little bit of gain, and more often than not gain that you will hardly ever see. Most will stick to cruise missiles for that reason, though the min/max'ers while swear by the torps everytime. These days, it seems more like a "personal taste" sort of thing rather than true optimization choices.

Rage would be more worth it if it had a little more range and Javelin would be better if the range was not the ONLY stat that didn't suck. Cruise missiles overall hit a little harder than they should perhaps.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-06-03 20:11:24 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
A Golem with 4x PWNGE TPs, 2x Rigor I, and a 5% dmg implant is adequate for one shotting all T1 NPC cruisers with Fury: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4450779

NPCs MWDs do not cause sig bloom.

IME, gunships (e.g. Vargur) outperform Cruise Golems in missions.


Also, why not 5 TPs? http://eve.battleclinic.com/view_loadout.php?id=42705


edit: Rigor II > Flare II > Rigor I > Flare I


For missions, Vargur>all in my experience. Some exceptions, blaster Kronos & damsel spring to mind but they're firmly in exception territory.

It projects so well at so many ranges (MJD solves deep falloff) it's an absolute machine. Accept no substitute.