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No missile pass accompanying Jackdaw release?

Author
Lev Ironwill
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#1 - 2015-05-31 19:23:57 UTC
Projectiles got tweaked with the Svipul release and lazors got tweaked with the Confessor, but CCP has ignored posts in the Jackdaw thread asking about similar treatment for missiles with the Jackdaw release.
Do you guys think CCP is trying to make it a surprise when they release some missile tweaks? I don't.
I think it's more likely that CCP is continuing to ignore missiles in favor of just about everything else, Fozzie sov and more Gallente features.
Has anyone heard anything I haven't about this? If I'm wrong I would like to know it.

Examples of missile tweaks could be:
-Updating rockets
-Torpedo range and/or application
-Heavy Missiles. Just about everything with Heavy's could use a look
-General missile speed with the possible exception of lights
-Kinetic locks. Why are they still a thing?
-Something new, like maybe an anti-capacitor missile similar to the Void bomb? 0 damage but drains some cap, scales with size. Just an off the wall idea that I, literally, thought up just now.

Again, those are just some examples off the top of my head of things that could be addressed in a missile tweak, some might be big enough issues to justify being put off but the constant silence from CCP on the subject of missiles is disconcerting and only serves to reinforce the opinion of some that there is an institutional hate for missiles within the Devs.

Thoughts? Opinions? Find something pertinent that negates this post? Please post.
Have a nice day, Big smile
Valkin Mordirc
#2 - 2015-05-31 19:57:40 UTC
I think CCP Probably thinks either

A. Missiles are fine as they are, Which is unlikely.

B. They are looking into but the Sentry/Ishtar took priority and rightfully so,

Or C. They don't know how to fix it without making it OP


HML, Torps and the Kin lock need to be looked at but personally I'd rather T3 and Sentries be taken care of first.
#DeleteTheWeak
Portiko
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-05-31 20:06:04 UTC
CCP still believe HMs were OP because of how much use they were getting. I think the real reason they saw so much use was that they were an accessible weapon system, along with the Drake being an accessible ship. I think it was unfair to nerf them.

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Lev Ironwill
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#4 - 2015-05-31 22:39:13 UTC
Yes, T3's and drones (sentries/Ishtar) still need work, but that has been true for a long while and they still found the time to tweak projectiles and lazors while listening to player feedback. So I'm not buying that as a valid excuse, if that is their reasoning.
As for "fine as they are" I remember there was a big Dev blog a while back, near the beginning of the year, where Rise explicitly stated that missiles needed work. This shows me that they are aware of issues and still have done nothing.
It is possible that they haven't figured out how to make tweaks to missiles that wouldn't make them blatantly OP, but can they really be THAT incompetent to have not come up with a single tweak to mollify the community until bigger ones can be made? (Like the sentry changes maybe?)
I think the most likely excuse is that missile ships still have to pay for the Drake and Tengu. The Jackdaw is being shipped with a handy dandy pre-nerf against oversized props built in and I believe that is both to address the issues that cropped up with oversized Svipuls/Confessors as well as to prevent any mini "100mn Tengu" fits.

Whatever the reasoning, the silence and lack of responses troubles me and this kind of crap seems to be most prevalent when it comes to missile-related things. I could be wrong about that, I don't pay THAT much attention to the threads it's just my impression.
Dato Koppla
Kiwis In Space
Dock Workers
#5 - 2015-06-01 06:02:50 UTC
Rockets are in a pretty good place, it gets decent dps, decent application and excellent range (for a short ranged weapon system). Light missiles on the other, they are in a somewhat good place but the Garmur and Orthrus make them broken but that's mostly due to the ships themselves and links, it's a whole different can of worms so I won't go into that too much. HAMs aren't too terrible but definitely need looking at in terms of damage application, it's quite poor even on Cruisers.

But heavies...ahh heavies, the double nerf (range + application) they took with the glory days of the Draek absolutely wrecked it. It's pretty much a laughing stock on any ship at this point with almost zero reason to ever fit it on anything. Rapid heavies aren't too bad mostly because battleships that use them have the utility slots to make it apply well to Cruisers as well as having good front loaded dps. Cruise missiles are also quite good with solid dps and ridiculous range even though the application is somewhat lacking. Torps definitely need looking at, the damage application is just too poor and even the range is pretty pathetic when you compare it to other short-range battleship weapons.

TL;DR
HAMs, Heavies and Torps direly need looking at. Rockets, Rapid Heavies and LMLs are fine. Garmur and Orthrus needs nerfing.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-06-01 06:39:02 UTC
Missiles are fine, for the most part. HML's are probably the biggest problem right now, but everything else is pretty much where it should be.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-06-01 10:37:30 UTC
problem is, is that aside from the normal nerfs, CCP keeps making things faster, now AB's and MWD's are getting a speed boost, while the MWD signature is reduced.

almost ever ship has become faster since the rebalance,

damage application should be severely looked at.

Maybe some modules, that will affect application at the cost of range , giving the missiles longer range with less application. and a module that does that the other way around.

then giving short range missiles better application and less damage, and make a module that give more damage at the cost of application and one that does it the other way around.

would need a complete rebalance of the missiles on it self, due to the limited number of slots available.

though by making those modules, it gives player to adjust to the continues changes that this game has.

Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#8 - 2015-06-01 11:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Janeway84
Precisions need more speed, Proteus needs to be given back its tank since its crap now 1 vs 1 against gila.
HML should get more dps and speed perhaps.
Rockets are sort of ok.
Torps could use a tiny increase in range across the board to match other weapons.

Would be great if missiles got their own tracking enhancer to get more range , either as a lowslot or midslot item.
Not sure what would be the best, if they add that they also need a missile disruption ewar perhaps to counter their new op'ness.
Maybe could have special missiles that radiate ships that make their propulsion systems loose speed 15%?
T3/Jove missiles that has slower rate of fire but does 4x the dmg with a AOE fx. Pirate

A few ideas, propably mostly bad but creative at least Big smile
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#9 - 2015-06-01 12:17:12 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
problem is, is that aside from the normal nerfs, CCP keeps making things faster, now AB's and MWD's are getting a speed boost, while the MWD signature is reduced.

almost ever ship has become faster since the rebalance,

damage application should be severely looked at.

Maybe some modules, that will affect application at the cost of range , giving the missiles longer range with less application. and a module that does that the other way around.

then giving short range missiles better application and less damage, and make a module that give more damage at the cost of application and one that does it the other way around.

would need a complete rebalance of the missiles on it self, due to the limited number of slots available.

though by making those modules, it gives player to adjust to the continues changes that this game has.




Fuzzy only knows how to kite in pvp. He doesn't like brawling or things that promote it (brawling to some is 80+ archons with sentries deployed). Since he's been hired he's nerfed webs, reduced mwd sig blooms, sped up ships, reduced mass/improved agility on otheres, created the ishtard and is still progressively nudging the game toward the risk averse kiting meta.

He loves armor hacs and thinks little of brawlers or missile boats. He's been pretty rough on parts of the game he isn't intimate with. (he got duped on mass/range in wh space). Overall I like that he's a decision maker and that he gets things done. He could however use a mentor to keep large groups from duping him.

With the exception of the ishtard I like a really good 'bad change' as it creates some chaos and favors those who can adapt.

Now that RLML and RHML are a thing I see any changes to normal heavies falling to the bottom of the pile. My reasoning is you can use RLML instead of heavies on cruiser/BC platforms and heavy missiles are now going to be balanced with RHML in mind.

TL/DR Based on changes over the last few years HML II are for chumps and nobody cares - sorry??

Portiko
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-06-01 17:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Portiko
Mike Whiite wrote:
problem is, is that aside from the normal nerfs, CCP keeps making things faster, now AB's and MWD's are getting a speed boost, while the MWD signature is reduced.

almost ever ship has become faster since the rebalance,

damage application should be severely looked at.

Maybe some modules, that will affect application at the cost of range , giving the missiles longer range with less application. and a module that does that the other way around.

then giving short range missiles better application and less damage, and make a module that give more damage at the cost of application and one that does it the other way around.

would need a complete rebalance of the missiles on it self, due to the limited number of slots available.

though by making those modules, it gives player to adjust to the continues changes that this game has.


To be honest, I've always felt HMs and HAMs should be consolidated into a single weapon system, with rigs dictating its function.

I mean, let's face it. HMs rig for application, HAMs rig for range. Where is the choice there?

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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-06-01 19:55:05 UTC
Portiko wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
problem is, is that aside from the normal nerfs, CCP keeps making things faster, now AB's and MWD's are getting a speed boost, while the MWD signature is reduced.

almost ever ship has become faster since the rebalance,

damage application should be severely looked at.

Maybe some modules, that will affect application at the cost of range , giving the missiles longer range with less application. and a module that does that the other way around.

then giving short range missiles better application and less damage, and make a module that give more damage at the cost of application and one that does it the other way around.

would need a complete rebalance of the missiles on it self, due to the limited number of slots available.

though by making those modules, it gives player to adjust to the continues changes that this game has.


To be honest, I've always felt HMs and HAMs should be consolidated into a single weapon system, with rigs dictating its function.

I mean, let's face it. HMs rig for application, HAMs rig for range. Where is the choice there?


You're presuming a lot of choice exists. Most ships have a single, perhaps 2, legitimate builds. Those builds dictate most of the fitting - including rigs. There can be some flexibility from ship to ship to suit the players' tastes/needs, but cookie cutters have been the order of the day for a long time.

HMs and HAMs are fine as they are. They each serve their purpose and serve them at least moderately acceptably. Of the 2, the HM's appear the worse off. HAMs are actually pretty fun to use, but yes, range is a PITA.

I'm not sure I rig for range even with HAMs for the most part, but that depends on what I'm doing. My Serpentis ratting HAM Tengu has no range rigs because the anom rats always spawn in the same general location - so I can just orbit a wreck and kill everything before it gets a chance to move away. Frigate can be challenging to take down, but I'm usually team-ratting anyway.
Forum Posts
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-06-01 20:19:03 UTC
Missiles should go the way of guns, the whole skill tree should be revamped, i.e. should be split into two types at every skill.

The first category should cover rockets and lights, with separate specialization skills
Second would cover HAM and heavy, with separate specialization skills
Third would cover Torpedoes and Cruise, with separate specialization skills

Rapids could be controlled by the next higher system like the "dual (x smaller gun)" gunnery weaps


It might be homogenization but it would sure as hell make more sense to me. They could balance pass them when they did this.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#13 - 2015-06-01 20:37:19 UTC
Does it seem weird to anyone that they promote kiting, but they murdered the Heavy missile Drake?


scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#14 - 2015-06-01 21:32:18 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Does it seem weird to anyone that they promote kiting, but they murdered the Heavy missile Drake?



You got that backwards. They murder/castrate the Drake and then promote kiting. Of course, I think CCP has it out for missile ships that try to be too relevant. I agree that the Jackdaw is coming out half-gimped to prevent it from having a chance at Drake or Tengu status without giving it anything to redeem it, at least in my eyes.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#15 - 2015-06-01 22:57:44 UTC
why would they need to balance medium and large sizes for the release of a destroyer?
be glad they overlooked the state of light missile on this release or you would have likely got a new nerf
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#16 - 2015-06-01 23:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: scorchlikeshiswhiskey
To mare wrote:
why would they need to balance medium and large sizes for the release of a destroyer?
be glad they overlooked the state of light missile on this release or you would have likely got a new nerf

"Hey everyone.

We're making some tweaks to Pulse Lasers of all sizes in Rhea, as well as Scorch ammo." -Fozzie
[url](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5248970#post5248970)[/url]

An entire weapon and ammo type got tweaked for the release of a destroyer. Is it so much to ask for some positive attention towards missiles?

As for lights and missile nerfs, at this point I wouldn't be that surprised if they decided to continue to nerf any kind of missile since it seems to be the only direction they can consistently tweak them.
Portiko
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-06-02 04:21:30 UTC
To mare wrote:
why would they need to balance medium and large sizes for the release of a destroyer?
be glad they overlooked the state of light missile on this release or you would have likely got a new nerf

You're just being grumpy.

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Send dick pics please...

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2015-06-02 09:49:25 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
I think CCP Probably thinks either

A. Missiles are fine as they are, Which is unlikely.

B. They are looking into but the Sentry/Ishtar took priority and rightfully so,

Or C. They don't know how to fix it without making it OP


HML, Torps and the Kin lock need to be looked at but personally I'd rather T3 and Sentries be taken care of first.



Not holding my breath for that. They're tickling sentries with a feather instead of taking bats and chainsaws to the offending hulls instead. At this rate, my kids will be drawing their pension before ishtars are fixed.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#19 - 2015-06-02 11:26:42 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Does it seem weird to anyone that they promote kiting, but they murdered the Heavy missile Drake?





Not exactly an armor hac. It wasn't the right kind of kiting. To be fair they weren't exactly woo hoo this is fun kind of fleets. Fuzzy likes guns, guardians and tiny sig radii - you really can't stuff the drake into that box.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#20 - 2015-06-02 11:38:03 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
I think CCP Probably thinks either

A. Missiles are fine as they are, Which is unlikely.

B. They are looking into but the Sentry/Ishtar took priority and rightfully so,

Or C. They don't know how to fix it without making it OP


HML, Torps and the Kin lock need to be looked at but personally I'd rather T3 and Sentries be taken care of first.



Not holding my breath for that. They're tickling sentries with a feather instead of taking bats and chainsaws to the offending hulls instead. At this rate, my kids will be drawing their pension before ishtars are fixed.



Deep down they have come to terms with the ishtar being in good shape and properly blananced. They just can't come to terms with sentries being a BS only drone. Once they get their arms around that - the ishtar will return to normal and the great archon sentry fleets of soul crushing lag will be no more.

I think it will sink in after the third ishtar tweak that you can't balance them until you take away the sentries. Be patient.
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