Ships & Modules

hydrid drake would be a different animal entirely for sure. Buffer tank would take a hit. One shield mod gone for cap mod. Lows I'd image owuld be 2 mags, pdu, dcu. So a Tc in mids might be inorder. Not much left after this setup. Invul gets a peice of whats left ofc. And prebuff (seen some new redo hydrid ship fits online, guessing they fit easier as not seeing ACR on some)...medium acr probably be on so one less cdfe so common.

drake is a meatshiled, alwasy has been. back befroe drake train it was often the last killed ship. for 2 reasosn. Its tank is a pita and lower dps. canes were a hight priority for the 220/425 II spam and tank easier to clear out once you tangled them up. harbs flown right and they engaged under good scenarios as well and drakes jsut fell to the bottom of the pile for target selection.


And these numbers. Liars figure and figures lie. On the combat char I am one of those final blows and I am a top damage. Heres one fun story as to how. 2 on 1, falcon kill (he faiied to jam us and his tank was somewhere just not on the ship, some days you get lucky). Other person....a rocket crow. drake top damage versus a rocket....\o/ lol. final blow pure luck. Crow probably veered out of range on orbit I'd put isk on.

More fun with these figures...are implants involved. On a gun boat I might run cheap implants. real common practice among some pvp'er to do so. Rof, damage....to me its worth it. drake/cerb would I run the missile hardwires....nah.

I think Grimpak has the right of it - most of the tweaks need to be done through ship bonuses. Changes to modules will change them for everyone and lead to less controllable results.

As for the rest of the folks who still dont believe there is a balance issue...try to be a little objective. If you guys dont think the quoted stats show an imbalance, what do they show?

The stats don't show an imballance. There isn't enough information to show an imballance or a ballance. I've posted in that numbers thread for a list of the numbers of ship types lost to compare to ships killed with. If those Minmatar ships being killed with greatly outnumber the amount of them being lost, then I will believe that they are as OP as people are claiming. If their number of losses corespond to their number of kills, it will just show that they are very popular and are killing and dieing equally which is what should happen in a ship that is flown more than another.

I actually fly Amarr Recons, HACs, BSs, and Inties more than Minmatar. While I do have a vested interest in Minmatar (I like their flavor), it wouldn't really adversely effect me if they are nerfed. I just don't believe they are at the point that you need to nerf Minmatar or ACs. Just maybe the falloff bonus on a few of their ships.

I don’t think that Gallente should have the speed card. They should already have the highest DPS. They have, arguable, the second best tanks in the game (passive and active). Passive, second to Amarr. Active, second to Caldari. Minmatar only has speed and falloff going for them. If you remove their speed them you are making them fight a DPS / Tank fight vs Gallente which outperforms them on both fronts.
A compromise that I could see would to give Gallente the highest acceleration, yet allow Minmatar to keep top speed. This would allow them (Gallente) to get up in the face of their opponents quick enough to apply their dps yet it wouldn’t give them an unfair advantage over Minmatar pilots who require their speed to be used as their tank. Any competent Gallente pilot would easily be able to use this superior acceleration to break a Minmatar’s orbit, thus forcing the Minmatar to focus on manual orbiting and making their speed a strategy that needs to be actively concentrated on, and not an “I win” button.

As for agility, I don’t have any good reason to give a greater agility to Minmatar or Gallente. Minmatar need it for their orbiting (manual or auto) while Gallente need it to make sure their greater acceleration actually gets them up close and personal with their opponent. I think the use of Armor tanks on Gallente would sort out the Minmatar having a slightly greater agility in the long run without having to give one race or the other a greater one.

tl;dr
Minmatar should stay fastest. Gallente should have greatest acceleration. Agility should be the same for both.

I know exactly what you said and I replied to you with my opinion. The higher DPS is not crap. With higher acceleration this DPS will be applied much quicker. I am taking in the bigger picture of Gallente in PvP, not just Gallente in PvP with Minmatar. As for YOU believing that the DPS of blasters being high is crap, I do not believe that. The current boost to blasters has helped them significantly and I believe they will continue along this path. The blaster boosts along with making them the fastest ships would be too much imho.


I think you need to reread what I posted. I am supporting them having to manually pilot again by removing their falloff bonuses from ships and giving Gallente acceleration bonuses to force this to happen. Please read through my posts fully if you want to have an actual discussion.

You seem to be thinking in a two dimentional 1v1 fight where there is only a single Gallente and single Minmatar pilot fighting. Once you get into real world pvp and have multiple opponents on the field, then the agility wouldn’t be enough for the Minmatar pilots to keep away from the Gallente.
Throwing in that rigs and armor tanking mods have speed penalty does effect the speed of the Gallente ships, but this is a separate issues that may or may not need to be looked at. Armor tanked Minmatar ships face the same penalties when fitting them. And yes, there are still Minmatar ships that use armor tanks.
Also, boosting the acceleration to the fastest of the four races could/should also mean doing this so that the mass isn’t as much of a detriment to the acceleration, yet still maintaining only a second best top speed.

A typical armor tanked Brutix has a top speed of 1050m/s while the Cane has a top speed of 1025m/s. The Brutix aligns at 11.9 and the Cane aligns at 14. This is using a single plated Cane (Typical) and a Dual Rep Brutix (Typical). You can of course argue fits if you like, however, this is just to show you that the speeds are comparable for armor tanking them. They aren’t as out of wack as people want to lead others to believe. (For armor tanking) Change the Brutix to a similar 1600 plate setup and their top speed is reduced to only 935m/s. This speed with a higher acceleration would make it very capable of catching the Cane who would be SLIGHTLY faster but have a slower acceleration.
So your comment that an armor cane can outrun an active tank Brutix is wrong. It can’t even out maneuver the Brutix. It can, however, outrun a plate brutix, but just barely. The Brutix can still turn faster than the Cane.

No actually they are both damn near pure Amarr pilots

I'm still a bit dubious, but I haven't had a lot of time to putz around with my blaster ships.





Then you may want to note that two ships have falloff bonuses, Vagabound and Tornado. Jury is still out on Tornado, and I have a hard time seeing a Vaga as overpowered.

Unless you are counting the Angel line, but that is a different discussion.






Of course I was talking one on one, in gangs you generally have tacklers/bubbles/warp-ins ect....ship to ship comparison is kinda pointless because scram =dead

Ironically enough the Brutix is #3 behind the Myrmidon and Ares on my list of "ships I've broke **** with" Hurricane is #4




You are likely right, I haven't looked at an active fit since the buff, mainly because I don't see the new blasters being enough to counter all of the disadvantages, specially since you are basically running against your cargo hold for an active tank, plated Brutix is too slow.

I kind of like where this thread is going, there seems to be some actual discussing going on.

I agree with most of what ElCholo said, and also what Liang said about how Minmatar ships are often easier to fit, which might be one of the reasons I think they are a bit to good at a bit too many roles.They are simply easier to fit for different purposes. The more I read the back and forth arguments though the more I'm convinced that ""wait and see" is the right approach for now. No need to go rushing any more changes until we see what this hybrid change will bring when people get the feel of the new setups and actual pvp in them.

So things to consider from the now excellent discussions here:

1. Reduce the falloff bonuses from the angel ships that have it,
2. Make changes to the races through ammo and/or hull bonuses and not modules (because modules would change everyone)
3. Give Gal the best accel and/or agility, but keep Matar having the highest speed and/or agility (that needs more discussion)
4. Remove/reduce speed penalty from armor rigs (have to be careful here because this will effect everyone - but amarr already have lower base speed - but might cause issues with armor matar ships)
5. Change the fitting balances between the races in some classes of ships (though this needs to be examined - it may be just perception - i dont think so though).

But above all, wait for these hybrid changes to shake out to see what we have. Think about the above in the meantime.

This would be a good start, IMHO.

1. Increase TE's optimal bonus to be the same as falloff, or reduce falloff and increase optimal slightly.
2. Give blasters a large optimal and shorter falloff.
3. Change all hybrid falloff bonuses to either tracking/optimal.

The purpose of 1 is to remove the unnecessary Minmatar advantage.
The purpose of 2 is to make Caldari optimal bonuses useful for blasters.
The purpose of 3 is to balance Gallente ships with falloff bonuses after change 2.