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Dear CCP, what I want for Christmas
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Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#21 - 2011-12-07 01:34:59 UTC
I am in favor of the aggro on Logis tbh...it won't hurt large fleets with lotsa logis (which you either out-blob or you don't bother), but it will change the "RR neutral alt" camping outside the station all day etc...from farming kill points on BC in RRed by logis or carriers frigs, to gate camping loners in Rancer or w/e "solo" logis are used in PvP, it's too much of "free fun"...if you out-range and provide more reps / cap than anything else capable of RR (say RR BS fleets), you should have some penalties...

Tbh, I would say it's fair for logis to get agro RRing, but I am ok if RR BS don't Roll
Again, the Logi DOESN'T really commit to the fight when repping, but it doesn't do anything else pretty much, so...it's like a rapier not getting agro if 'it just webs" or a falcon not getting aggro if it "just jams"...

Complicated hah ?...I bet that's why CCP hasn't touch it yet...

- I don't know about the rest...ecm drones are too powerful in swarms as the blobs use them tbh, but making them especially weak against smartbombs would solve a lot of this issue...that means that cruisers and BCs could use at least medium SBs to kill them potently - not the case, as the dmg is meh, the range is meh, and the cap usage is disproportional to the gain.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Umega
Solis Mensa
#22 - 2011-12-07 01:36:34 UTC
For more Matar ships to be given the biggest buff outta Crucible..

The RF Firetail new paint.

Now adorned in a new Batman styled skin.. it IS Batman, therefor it is now God. Bow down and repent your crimes to the Firetail, before it assaults you.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2011-12-07 01:40:55 UTC
Diomidis wrote:
I am in favor of the aggro on Logis tbh...it won't hurt large fleets with lotsa logis (which you either out-blob or you don't bother)


Yes, it would hurt. Tank and deaggro to jump/dock is in many cases the only realistic way of disengaging from a fight in armor fleets.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#24 - 2011-12-07 01:42:08 UTC
Diomidis wrote:
I am in favor of the aggro on Logis tbh...it won't hurt large fleets with lotsa logis (which you either out-blob or you don't bother), but it will change the "RR neutral alt" camping outside the station all day etc...from farming kill points on BC in RRed by logis or carriers frigs, to gate camping loners in Rancer or w/e "solo" logis are used in PvP, it's too much of "free fun"...if you out-range and provide more reps / cap than anything else capable of RR (say RR BS fleets), you should have some penalties...

Tbh, I would say it's fair for logis to get agro RRing, but I am ok if RR BS don't Roll
Again, the Logi DOESN'T really commit to the fight when repping, but it doesn't do anything else pretty much, so...it's like a rapier not getting agro if 'it just webs" or a falcon not getting aggro if it "just jams"...

Complicated hah ?...I bet that's why CCP hasn't touch it yet...

- I don't know about the rest...ecm drones are too powerful in swarms as the blobs use them tbh, but making them especially weak against smartbombs would solve a lot of this issue...that means that cruisers and BCs could use at least medium SBs to kill them potently - not the case, as the dmg is meh, the range is meh, and the cap usage is disproportional to the gain.


I'm really curious why you're raging over 1 logi being on the field. The real problems with Logis all start when someone has 12 Guardians not when you have 1 Basilisk.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#25 - 2011-12-07 07:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Diomidis
Yeah, disengaging from the fight will still be viable guys...but 1-2 logistics (out of the cancer of 12 as you say) will be lost.
You will have to sacrifice either a few DPS or w/e ships, or a few of your logis. Not turtling in a blob around a gate and de-aggroing at your leisure. You lose some ships to save a fleet...it's happening in nearly every situation other than the logi-heavy one.

The same with the "single logi"...and I see no rage there, please.
You wanna save your uber PVP gate hugging faction ship or play games at the station? The logi assisting you will have to give something...expose itself. Perhaps die. I don't see why should logis be the only ship that can operate @ 100% of it's capability and being nearly immune in large -or small - numbers hugging gates and stations...

It will still have some 70km of repping range one of the best speed / EHP / Sig combos in the game etc to work with (even drone space for OP ecm drones!). It's not like it's doomed 100%...still plenty room to do station games, or gate games etc...you will simply have to move around, and not just go for the easy mode jumping or docking whenever you see fit.

Also, we have to be realistic: "Single" logis for station and gate games, are used to heal a bait ship most of the time, or deprive the right of a blobbed victim to at least take someone with him...Liang tried to sell it as the "hero" role a few times, and maybe you are right if you are looking at your gang's side of the coin only. A single logi is overkill already when it's there to "counter" a single ship. "Just one logi" doesn't mean fair fights, does it ?

Again, no rage, simple thoughts - even if I am wrong, it doesn't prove you right.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-12-07 08:50:19 UTC
As far as what CCP is giving out for Christmas rumor is the second implant to complement the one given out this expansion.

stats pulled from test server data at http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/sisi_changes.php

Hardwiring - Genolution Core Augmentation CA-2
capRechargeBonus = -1.50%
cpuOutputBonus2 = 1.50%
implantness = 4 Slot
implantSetChristmas = 1.50x
intelligenceBonus = 3 points
requiredSkill1 = 3411 typeID (most likely cybernetics)
requiredSkill1Level = 2
techLevel = 1 Level
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-12-07 16:32:35 UTC
Diomidis wrote:
Yeah, disengaging from the fight will still be viable guys...but 1-2 logistics (out of the cancer of 12 as you say) will be lost.
You will have to sacrifice either a few DPS or w/e ships, or a few of your logis. Not turtling in a blob around a gate and de-aggroing at your leisure. You lose some ships to save a fleet...it's happening in nearly every situation other than the logi-heavy one.

The same with the "single logi"...and I see no rage there, please.
You wanna save your uber PVP gate hugging faction ship or play games at the station? The logi assisting you will have to give something...expose itself. Perhaps die. I don't see why should logis be the only ship that can operate @ 100% of it's capability and being nearly immune in large -or small - numbers hugging gates and stations...

It will still have some 70km of repping range one of the best speed / EHP / Sig combos in the game etc to work with (even drone space for OP ecm drones!). It's not like it's doomed 100%...still plenty room to do station games, or gate games etc...you will simply have to move around, and not just go for the easy mode jumping or docking whenever you see fit.

Also, we have to be realistic: "Single" logis for station and gate games, are used to heal a bait ship most of the time, or deprive the right of a blobbed victim to at least take someone with him...Liang tried to sell it as the "hero" role a few times, and maybe you are right if you are looking at your gang's side of the coin only. A single logi is overkill already when it's there to "counter" a single ship. "Just one logi" doesn't mean fair fights, does it ?

Again, no rage, simple thoughts - even if I am wrong, it doesn't prove you right.

However, giving mutually supporting ships a perpetual aggression timer (which can only be stopped by stopping mutual assistance, which is a death sentence for Logis or even RRBS, as they would face similar issues with propagating aggression timers preventing them from deaggressing even when they cease fire) wouldn't work either. The correct solution is for the assisting ship to "inherit" the aggression timer of the ship it is assisting (which would mean that the logistics in fleets would still be able to move with the fleet instead of getting split off by an aggression timer, while neutral RR docking/gate games would be reduced).
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#28 - 2011-12-07 20:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Diomidis
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
However, giving mutually supporting ships a perpetual aggression timer (which can only be stopped by stopping mutual assistance, which is a death sentence for Logis or even RRBS, as they would face similar issues with propagating aggression timers preventing them from deaggressing even when they cease fire) wouldn't work either. The correct solution is for the assisting ship to "inherit" the aggression timer of the ship it is assisting (which would mean that the logistics in fleets would still be able to move with the fleet instead of getting split off by an aggression timer, while neutral RR docking/gate games would be reduced).


Offcourse. You don't add something new to what I've said - I proposed sacrifising a logi or two to save another ship, or let it die, or adjust your tactics to something more than "jump in, re-approach, orbit 500m, be ready to jump out @ your leisure", which is now the norm.

Solo recon games won't be reduced, exactly cause as I've said, logis have too much to play with already - EHP, speed, low sig, RR range. Sitting @ range repping the guy that has 30sec left in his aggression timer means that you get a 30 sec aggression timer youself, or way lower, as by the time the enemy realizes that keeping DPS on the our buddy is futile, and they have to cover the distance to your ship, lock you up, and kill you within seconds...guess what...it's not happening.

What I am suggesting, is that Logis should play like falcons are now:

You get engaged in any way? Plan your move, be at range. Work for your gang to receive proper impact. Be ready to warp out and stick out of the fight for 1-2 min while coming in and out of the field, or set multiple Safes around the gate prior to the fight.
If logistic RR games will be reduced, it will be only because it will become more difficult for people to dual box it, just like it happened with the falcon losing range and gaining strength at the same time. Falcons are less popular now, not because those cannot change the tides, but because it requires a more active game-play to do so, and even then be somehow exposed to risk. Good falcon pilots still pwn a lot, and do so with usually half or even less the EHP of logis, worse sig, worse speed, worse agility.

Should you argue about more range on your RRs to do that? I could "buy" it if you wanted to talk "falloff" effectiveness on them too. Even give RR modules a slight boost, so BS RR will get better, and you can still do amazingly good up close with logis, but not with immunity. Still more powerful than other ewar modules that get falloff, stacking penalties etc.

I understand that CCP want's to boost team work. I love it. I like it.
But shear numbers should not be the answer with everything, as it's the case with logis now, ECM drones, falcons etc, as these ships scale up the efficiency of your gang so much that after one point it breaks the balance of the game.

If in the "single logi" argument, we where seeing an already pimped BS, playing macho against 3-4 other ships, and one logi being enough to help him kill them all 4 with ease - a pretty standard scenario in station games, is it balanced for the other side?
Is it that they were "badly prepared" so they deserve to lose to "a solo BS"?
Or is it that after one point having one ship that worth's as much as other 3-4 in the battlefield that runs no risk what-so-ever to be shot down other than pilot stupidity or the server crashing?
Why did they remove the 15min loggofski trick lately, if it's OK to technically do the same with a team of logis outside a station or gate?

I feel that it will be a hard change for many people that specialize to this play-style. I don't see it being unfair though.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Noisrevbus
#29 - 2011-12-07 21:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
DHB WildCat wrote:
1) RR to be flagged as agression so you cannot insta dock or jump in high sec with neutral alts.
2) ECM drone nerf
3) ECM nerf 8P to bursting only also makes damps more useful
4) Torps to fly far again (lol just wishful remebrances)


1. As someone else said: it should have been done ages ago. It affect everyone from exploits in highsec, to station games in lowsec, to gaterunning in nullsec.

2. I read the recent thread dedicated to this issue, and im not gonna delve too deep into it here, but i'd say im comfortable with the counter-arguments. ECM drones may be an issue if you isolate them and only look at the internal balance of drones, however, both the options (of penalizing ECM-drones or improving other forms of EW-drones) have wider effects that are more negative and would cause ripple effects for more design attention. As it stands ECM-drones offer an effective counter to other overpopular tactics and have quite powerful counters to themselves in most situations where their presence gain atttention.

In short: logi-counters, smartbombs on large ships, dedicated anchors in gangs; web, neut or point drones would just feed the blob and hurt ships that are less likely to counter drones to begin with (small ships, small gangs, further reduce emergence).

3. Only 1 ECM / target / cycle, removal of racial ECM, introduction of racial scripts; will generate more ECM-ships with less snap but more staying-power, will indirectly improve ECCM (no overstack, no failsafe), will balance out "home court advantage" and secure regional use (no dock to refit perfect counter), will even out the balance of ECM between undermanned (small) and outmanned (big) gangs (fights). For you goldfish-span gentlemen: Every missed cycle essentially grant you immunity for the duration. Credit to it's author on FHC.

4. No Raven surprises under the tree plx! P


My own wishes?

1. Authentic corporate-level objectives (action) in nullsec. Not some hodge-podge band-aid like Wormholes or Custom Offices. Grief and sabotage that is based on time rather than volume, coerce direct response, let the AFK pet-bot problem sort itself out. Roaming is emergent gameplay, encourage it. Relying on infrastructure that you did not take and cannot defend (without help, against even a solo player), is not.

2. Further nullsec changes that discourages keeping pets (and AFK-empires). Pets (bots) do not contribute to emergent gameplay. We don't need more players in nullsec, we need more actors with their own ambition, will and aspiration. That way sovereign space will once again be sovereign and filled with natural, bordering, conflict.

3. ISK sinks, meaningful PvP is fun PvP (it's how EVE differentiate from most other MMO), discourage throwaway derp-fleets (do not introduce more powerful concepts on virtually free resources, like the tier 3 BC, while ISK faucet out to RMT). Skillpoints is no longer the reason tech I is so prevalent, cost-efficiency is overboard. When i shoot someone i want it to hurt, when i get shot i want it to force recouperation - graveyard respawn is for pseudo MMO.
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#30 - 2011-12-08 10:04:03 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
1) RR to be flagged as agression so you cannot insta dock or jump in high sec with neutral alts.

2) ECM drone nerf

3) ECM nerf 8P to bursting only also makes damps more useful

4) Torps to fly far again (lol just wishful remebrances)



Dear DHB Wildcat

Take your snowball launcher and STFU.

Santa
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