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Would this tactic be effective against "hyper dunking?"
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Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2015-08-06 01:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I couldn't tell, considering it certainly seems like you were arguing for the legality of having two characters logged in at the same time on the same account, one repping the other, and claiming that as a valid tactic because bumping exists.

If I'm wrong, by all means, please tell me what position you actually are taking here.


I'm saying the mechanics allow it and arbitary limits on this sound really painful for the GMs. The same way that hyperdunking was an unintended but creative outcome of the mechanics, this seems like something that is an equally unintended but perfectly legit creative use of the existing mechanics.

Further, it's not so straightforward as you imply. Assume a GM DOES rule that using a logi to rep your freighter is verbotten, that still leaves unresolved:


  • can I use my same account alt to bump the orca/bowhead out of range?
  • can I use my same account alt to scout on grid to see if my main toon is still in space or not?
  • can I use my same account alt to board the empty catalysts laying around?
  • can I use my same account alt to bring CONCORD back to the grid as soon as the hyperdunker has pulled them off grid in his shuttle?
  • can I use my same account alt to jam the hyperdunker once he's back in his Catalyst?
  • can I use my same account to KM whore on my own freighter gank?
  • can I use my same account alt to scan down their shuttle drop and pod them off grid?


And so on... I'm sure someone could come up with another half-dozen variations that would each need independent GM rulings. Or we get a blanket ruling that "logging into an alt on an account with a previous toon actively in space is forbidden", which allows for the DoS scenario I already outlined.

In short, it's a bad place for CCP and the GMs to be in when the game mechanics allow something and yet there are so many subtle variations that the GMs will pretty much have an endless workload while at the same time ticking people off with arbitrary rulings that have no consistent sense.

So the position I'm actually taking here is that it is far easier to just HTFU and accept that it's a legit "creative use of gameplay mechanics", IMO. Not because I worry about repping my freighters or care about hyperdunking at all, but because an endless stream of GM rulings around a built-in gameplay mechanic sounds like a nightmare for all involved.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#62 - 2015-08-06 02:33:20 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:

I'm saying the mechanics allow it and arbitary limits on this sound really painful for the GMs.


I don't understand how. Logging off of a character in space and then hopping on a market alt is markedly different than logging into another character and assisting the first character. Even in the rest of your scenarios you presented, most of those are a pretty obvious no, in my opinion.

Like I said, if you think that it's allowed, ask. It really is that simple. No stream of speculation on the forums, no trying to argue your point with someone who doesn't have any authority about it anyway, you can get an answer really easily.

So why has no one defending this supposed tactic taken the simple step of just asking? Seems suspicious, if you ask me.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#63 - 2015-08-06 02:33:44 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Your ship also loses all bonuses when you log off cuting your ehp by up to 25%

Why?

The pIlot is still sitting in the ship.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#64 - 2015-08-06 13:04:38 UTC
Damen Apol wrote:
You're solo in a freighter or whatever industrial ship that can't allign fast enough.


If you want an effective tactic against hyper-dunking, this would be the part where you went wrong. Don't move fat, slow ships without the appropriate support - we can't gank what we can't catch.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
#65 - 2015-08-06 13:51:47 UTC
Epic Name wrote:
"hyper dunking" Honestly, who makes up these stupid ******* names?


At first I thought it was an extreme form of competitive oreo eating.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#66 - 2015-08-06 14:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


And like I said to the others. If you don't believe me, feel free to put in a GM ticket and ask about it. Straight up, say "Am I allowed to log into two characters at once on the same account to have one rep the other?"


Just because you keep repeating a lie won't ever make it true.

It is impossible to have two characters from the same acct logged in. Ever!

The ship being bumped is not logged in. The bumper is keeping it in the game. The player being bumped has logged out and can legitimately log in on a different character.

If you want to log in your repper on that acct and do what it takes to keep from losing that freighter that is being held in the game by a mechanics flaw, then by all means do it. It is not now, has never been, and will never be, an exploit. You are not logged in to two characters on the same acct at once. You have one character logged in and one ship being held in the game through no fault of your own.

Mr Epeen Cool
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2015-08-06 15:04:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:

I'm saying the mechanics allow it and arbitary limits on this sound really painful for the GMs.


I don't understand how. Logging off of a character in space and then hopping on a market alt is markedly different than logging into another character and assisting the first character. Even in the rest of your scenarios you presented, most of those are a pretty obvious no, in my opinion.

Like I said, if you think that it's allowed, ask. It really is that simple. No stream of speculation on the forums, no trying to argue your point with someone who doesn't have any authority about it anyway, you can get an answer really easily.

So why has no one defending this supposed tactic taken the simple step of just asking? Seems suspicious, if you ask me.


The issue is people could try to forum lawyer their way across with some of those. Pulling CONCORD to help yourself on your alt is obviously helping your alt stuck in space but can I use my alt to gank someone else passing by? The difference between pulling CONCORD back and failing a gank on your alt will be hard to really determine. Especially if you do it in a plausible ship.

That is the kind of stuff most GM would probably like to never have to deal with.

People might also claim they don't know about agression timer keeping their alt in space. They were "only shooting a flashy red guy because they could".

It's EVE after all, half the playerbase would probbaly at least try to internet lawyer themself out and finding an argument that will be hard to really prove is false is not all that hard especially if you don't do it multiple times.
Flitz Farseeker
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-08-06 15:54:44 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Don't move fat, slow ships without the appropriate support - we can't gank what we can't catch.


admiral root has a fair point. It's a MMO after all. While nobody is stopping you from playing solo, you need to accept that some activities are beyond the capabilities of a single character and, dodgy game mechanics aside, hauling stuff in freighters is one of those activities.

Rather that worrying about whether logging in your alt is legal, you could just get a 2nd account, or join a corp and bring along some friendly support. While losing a freighter to hyperdunking is a rather harsh lesson, welcome to EvE.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#69 - 2015-08-06 21:29:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:

You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up.


I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that.



Since the game mechanics allow you to do it it is perfectly legal. Don't listen to someone who participates in said gank.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#70 - 2015-08-07 01:04:19 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Sorry OP, but you need to realize the fact that using capital ship sized transports in high sec is suicide. They keep telling you to use scouts, watch kill boards, bring ECM and other things, but the dirty secret is none of that matters. If they want to suicide gank you - you will die. It is far too easy to bump with neutral alts who can't be touched. Use throw away suicide aggression noob ships. Suicide Blackbirds to ECM your webbing alt. The list goes on.

They keep feeding this misinformation so you keep hauling with capital sized transports and thus, allow them to keep suicide ganking.

My advice is to take away their target by not flying that stuff. Then watch the forums flood with suicide ganker tears. Cool

Bring a proper escort and you're fine. A few friends in ECCM Rapiers and put the others in Falcons so they can jam the suicide tackle. Capital ships are not solo ships.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#71 - 2015-08-07 01:58:47 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Fly with an escort.
Good scout + web alts.
Web alts can also ECM.

just die. easier and much more cost effective in the long run.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#72 - 2015-08-07 02:08:51 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:

You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up.


I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that.



Since the game mechanics allow you to do it it is perfectly legal. Don't listen to someone who participates in said gank.


I am one of a very few people who know of a way to evade Concord. The game mechanics absolutely allow me to do it.

I would be banned anyway.

Like I said, those of you defending this nonsense, go ahead and be a man and put a ticket in about it. You'll get your answer. But like the rest of the shills, you don't have the spine to actually get a concrete answer about it, you'd prefer to just bluster on the forums.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#73 - 2015-08-07 08:25:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:

You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up.


I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that.



Since the game mechanics allow you to do it it is perfectly legal. Don't listen to someone who participates in said gank.


I am one of a very few people who know of a way to evade Concord. The game mechanics absolutely allow me to do it.

I would be banned anyway.

Like I said, those of you defending this nonsense, go ahead and be a man and put a ticket in about it. You'll get your answer. But like the rest of the shills, you don't have the spine to actually get a concrete answer about it, you'd prefer to just bluster on the forums.




The only way you would know it is by having done it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2015-08-07 09:36:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

I am one of a very few people who know of a way to evade Concord. The game mechanics absolutely allow me to do it.

I would be banned anyway.


And you've reported this through the official CCP exploit channels, right?

Regardless, this sort of thing is exactly what prompted GM's to eventually issue a blanket ruling that evading CONCORD is an exploit, period. Because trying to cover all the edge cases with individual rulings became a GM hassle.

Which is fine; if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there. It introduces the potential to keep someone from playing EVE for a day or so, but that's not the end of the world. If they try to do it with individual rulings on specific scenarios, we'll just get a bunch of space lawyering and annoyed GM's.

So I vote we skip all that, save the GM's from a litany of stupid tickets, and just accept that there's no reason except spite and prejudice to be against carebear haulers creatively using game mechanics no more or less exploit-y than the hyperdunkers. What's good for the goose...
Sequester Risalo
German Corps of Engineers 17
Federation of Respect Honor Passion Alliance.
#75 - 2015-08-07 12:15:02 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
...if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there....


The only problem is I would have no idea if the other toon is stuck in space. I mean the freighter could be bumped for ever and the Pilot could be banned for logging in his trading alt 2 hours later. Doesn't seem fair.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#76 - 2015-08-07 12:35:22 UTC
Sequester Risalo wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:
...if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there....


The only problem is I would have no idea if the other toon is stuck in space. I mean the freighter could be bumped for ever and the Pilot could be banned for logging in his trading alt 2 hours later. Doesn't seem fair.

I believe Kaarous is suggesting that it could be an exploit to log into a second character in order to rep your other character's ship, not that it would be verboten to just log into a second character at all while your first character's ship is still in space. The main no-no being having two characters (on the same account) affecting gameplay on the same grid at the same time.

I don't know if that is true, and only CCP can tell us definitively in any case, but it would seem plausible to me that this would be considered an exploit. You should not be able to "benefit" from two characters from the same account logged in simultaneously to the same PvP encounter, especially on the same grid.

However, since your skills do not contribute to your ship while logged off even if it is still in space (as I understand it), then perhaps your freighter pilot is not consider logged in this situation and thus it would be ok to rep your effectively-pilotless bumped freighter with a second character. Hopefully someone can get and share a ruling on this situation to clear things up.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2015-08-07 16:27:49 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Sequester Risalo wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:
...if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there....


The only problem is I would have no idea if the other toon is stuck in space. I mean the freighter could be bumped for ever and the Pilot could be banned for logging in his trading alt 2 hours later. Doesn't seem fair.

I believe Kaarous is suggesting that it could be an exploit to log into a second character in order to rep your other character's ship, not that it would be verboten to just log into a second character at all while your first character's ship is still in space. The main no-no being having two characters (on the same account) affecting gameplay on the same grid at the same time.

I don't know if that is true, and only CCP can tell us definitively in any case, but it would seem plausible to me that this would be considered an exploit. You should not be able to "benefit" from two characters from the same account logged in simultaneously to the same PvP encounter, especially on the same grid.

However, since your skills do not contribute to your ship while logged off even if it is still in space (as I understand it), then perhaps your freighter pilot is not consider logged in this situation and thus it would be ok to rep your effectively-pilotless bumped freighter with a second character. Hopefully someone can get and share a ruling on this situation to clear things up.


Anybody that would open a ticket can't reveal the content...

People would also internet lawyer their way around whatever was said. There is also a bunch of things you could do to help your freighter with an alt without interacting with it. Spawning concord for example or finding the ship to pull concord off the gate where the gank happen and killing/stealing them so the ganker has no more options to pull concord off.

"I'm not saving my freighter sir, I'm just shooting those odd abandoned shuttles I found in deep space."
Black Pedro
Mine.
#78 - 2015-08-07 16:56:58 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Anybody that would open a ticket can't reveal the content...

People would also internet lawyer their way around whatever was said. There is also a bunch of things you could do to help your freighter with an alt without interacting with it. Spawning concord for example or finding the ship to pull concord off the gate where the gank happen and killing/stealing them so the ganker has no more options to pull concord off.

"I'm not saving my freighter sir, I'm just shooting those odd abandoned shuttles I found in deep space."

You can reveal the content. You just can't post GM correspondence verbatim.

People can rule-lawyer all they want but it would be clear to the GM if you were in the participating in the same PvP engagement simultaneously with two characters and they have the final say. I don't see why people argue that drawing a line is a bad thing as people will always dance around them with excuses. Since people will dance anyway no matter how precise the rules are, and CCP get to make the final say in all cases, the more information they give us on what actions are within the rules and what are not, the better.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#79 - 2015-08-07 17:25:34 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
What if you ganked the ganker by getting a cheap alt ship, MWDing to where he lands, and then getting his pod with smart bombs when his ship explodes? They'd have to give up sometime... maybe?


You would be unlikely to stop the gank. Whole fleets of anti-gankers can't stop the massacre in Uedema. And podding the gankers is pointless. What you would accomplish is podding him right back into the station he came out of where he has a stack of the few implants he actually uses. He would be ready to go as soon after that as he is waiting for the cooldown.

Since CODE. always wins, they, for one, never give up.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Salvos Rhoska
#80 - 2015-08-08 05:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Hyperdunker sending a ticket to GM complaining that his target is being repaired.

Hmm...

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent