Assembly Hall

So, we're back to these bombs being insta-win in your opinion? Well the problem is that you and Ingvar Angst now disagree, because he says that these bombs would help the invaders, and you are saying that these bombs would help the defenders against the uninvited guests.

You two disagree on who it would be beneficial for.
The re-occurrence over and over in your posts about reinforcements tell me that this is a very important issue to you. I do understand that as a part of a corp that was rescued when invaders came into your system, you'd be sensitive about anything that would disrupt your sense of security. I expect you see this proposal as an assault on the mechanics that give you that security. I can respect that motivation, but I simply disagree that it should be a determining factor. I would quote back to you your own sentiment; "there is a hell of a lot more going on in the game than what you alone care about".

From all of the resistance I've seen to this idea, I hope that everyone can just relax and rest assured that no matter how long this thread gets, this idea probably won't be something CCP will adopt. I think it is a good idea, and I'm amused by the discourse we're having, but I don't honestly expect this to come out in the next patch. So, just ease back... there's no need for people to get their blood pressure up. It is a conversation on a topic we disagree about.

It already is and always will be simply because the players will find a way to make it trivial.

WRONG

DEAD WRONG.

Learn to think before you type.


I completely agree with Ingvar. (Even if I come across as somenoe standing on my own..its only becasue I'm not in his realm of knowledge...he's likely on a whole different level of epxertise..but what he says..makes sense...I'm sitting here appluading every time he posts as it is)

Its a two way street when it comes to WHS Defense or offense.

His explinations and arguments are in concert with mine.

Reinforcments being denied is no different than the oposistion denying access to their own hole.

For you to fail to pick up on that...is just even more evidence that you have utterly no clue what your talking about.

Again..in case your blind and not just failing to rationlize...I agree with him..completely.

He's only entertaining the idea for as long as the balance of WHS offense/defense is not disuprted in ALL areas...including large alliances/corporations..an area you refuse to factor in.

I agree with this, Drake. Denying reinforcements is the same as denying people access to your hole. I am totally with you. These devices are used to degrade holes without bias, they don't exclusively work for invaders, or defenders.

The issue I think that Ingvar Angst sees is that he had a very close call. His group could have been ousted from a system they were really invested in. He is imagining the Russians lobbing wormhole degrading bombs at the holes instead of having to fly their big logi-orca through them. The orca was the lynchpin to them saving their system, because once they blew that up, they could keep the holes open and get people to fly to their rescue. I do get where he's coming from.

There are so many topics I want to address, I have to revert to bullet points.

• The Russians were on in their time zones, and were asleep enough at the wheel (literally and figuratively) so that Aquilla could bump their dreds out of the POS and blow them up. Now, if you have the time to bump an opposing fleet out of their POS, you have time to close a wormhole or explore to try and get reinforcements in. The only time the Russians were doing anything was when they were online and active, and whether or not they had bombs, that's how it was.
• If the invaders of a hole have to use these devices, they will need to be flying a SB. SB's can be destroyed much easier than orcas or tengus. The Aquilla Incident did involve a Russian orca, but without a POS or an orca, you're not changing ships in a wormhole. This means that you're stuck in the SB.
• These devices would cost a lot. They are a guaranteed loss. I've been saying around 20 million ISK, and I think that's a good starting point. 20 million per shot. You can either fire off 10 or 11 of these things or you can buy a Tengu hull at the same price. The cost might not matter to big alliances who replace their lost supercaps with a yawn, but very soon it will be obvious that this bomb is a convenience, not a replacement for jumping back and forth through the hole.

This.

Posting in an obscure thread on an EVE forum is hardly grandstanding. Besides, this thread has been at least 90% negative towards this idea - if I am anything it is a glutton for punishment.
Neither cheap nor efficient? If that is true, why do you call it an "I win" button? Your standards may be different than mine, but if I was going to design an "I win" button, it would be effective.
Drake, you are assuming that I am pushing this idea because I want them for my own use. I don't need to use these bombs, and if I had them I would probably save them until I had a really good reason to use them. I know how to degrade wormholes, and I am perfectly happy to let the dangerous ones expire naturally. If CCP came to me and said "We have decided to make your WH bombs, but you and your alts will never be able to use them", I would still support the idea - it's not about me at all.

You can keep insulting me, and deriding me and trying to provoke me into acting like you do, but when you do that, the messages I see are: "I can't compete so I am going to try and hurt you" and "I'm not mature enough to have this discussion". You aren't hurting my feelings, you're just making yourself look bad. We can disagree with each other without being petulant.

Because it is a good idea. It doesn't have to personally benefit me for me to advocate for it.

My current ideas on how these bombs should work:
Bomb flight time should be 10 seconds.
Bomb speed should be 1.5k/sec.
Bomb area of effect should be 500m (radius)
Bomb must be launched from a Bomb Launcher II
Bomb volume = 95m3
Bomb Armor HP = 240
Bomb Structure HP = 50
Bombs would be banned in Empire Space (like all bombs)
Bomb wormhole mass multiplier = .4
Bomb lifetime modifier = -7200 seconds
Blueprint originals would not be available on the market
Blueprint copies would spawn in random stations.

In order to fire these devices, a pilot will need to have Bomb Deployment V. The pilot would need to be in a Stealth Bomber fitted with a Bomb Launcher II. The size of these bombs (95m3) would mean that a maximum of 3 could be carried by any race's stealth bomber. The pilot would have to align to the wormhole and deploy the device between 15,499m and 14,501m for it to affect the wormhole at all. This deployment zone puts them within targeting/warp disruption range of people camping the hole. The bomb would be slow moving once fired, traveling at half the speed of current bombs. They would have no resistances to any damage type. Obviously this means that they could be shot down.

I had mentioned earlier that if the bomber had to remain on grid for the bomb to have an effect, that would add exposure. I'm not sure if this fits within the current game code, though. If there was some measure that could be put in place to make it a little riskier, I think it would be more acceptable.

I doubt that these bombs would be used with any regularity, considering their expense and risk relative to my proposed effect. It gets expensive too quickly. But, in specific circumstances, where the tactical advantage outweighed the cost, I can see them used to great effect.

These bombs would not be used by most corps that want to degrade their statics. In situations where the corp felt safe they would use conventional means. These bombs would cost a lot and using 5 of them a day (at 20 mil a pop) adds up to real money in a hurry. Now, if your corp has the 3 billion a month to spend on these per w-space system you control, then kudos to you, but I think anyone who takes a sober look at it will see these as an unnecessary expense. If you don't believe me, run some calculations and tell me how to make it affordable.

Sure people will want them, and train up to use them, but unless they are in a stealth bomber, they can't. And even if they are in a stealth bomber (instead of a PvP ship), they are open to being podded. The bombs can be defeated by a single battleship with a smartbomb camping the hole. There are lots of limitations. If anything, I am starting to think that i am putting in too many concessions to try and find the middle ground.

Pretty much this

You really have no concept of mining/yield/profit output of a wormhole do you?