These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Valterra Craven
#161 - 2015-05-21 19:11:46 UTC
link your
eagle
zealot
cerb
munnin fit.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#162 - 2015-05-21 19:13:27 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic?

Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull?

Looking at other HACs the Munnin gets rate of fire, damage, optimal, and tracking; which from a bonus only comparison is better than the Ishtar's.

Several other HACs get double damage bonuses and double range, some only get one range bonus. The fact that the Ishtar gets one for damage, one for optimal, and one for tracking is not out of line with other HACs. It is the weapon system that makes the bonuses more meaningful.


Ishtar sentries gets bonus to damage, optimal, tracking and range. That's 4 bonus just like other HAC gets on top of another bonus specifically targeted at heavy drones.

Drone control range is the same as missile flight time/max velocity. It's a projection bonus especially when it's possible to reach the normal drone control range with your primary weapon system (sentries).

Quad weapon bonus at the cost of 3 bonus slot. Scrap the tracking or optimal which occupy the same slot so it's like other ships.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#163 - 2015-05-21 19:13:58 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
Taram Caldar wrote:
Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group...

Ishtar Sentry damage is already in line with ships of their class. This happened the last balance pass on the hull when damage bonus was cut in half from 50% to 25%. They have maximal dps with Heavy Drones which have their own shortcomings.

The tracking/optimal bonus of 25% on the Ishtar Sentries and 37.5% on the Domi ones are significant but not out of line with other ranged systems.

Let's compare 3 HACs, bonuses only:

An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage.
A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus.
An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking.

The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage,
The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus
The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton.

The bonuses are all in line with each other.


Still waiting for a Zealot setup that can do 420 dps at 160 km.

Eagle can reach that with CN Plutonium at 58+20 km.

Quote:
It is the weapon system that then makes them stand apart.


So just a battleship-sized weapons system. Roll


Apples/oranges comparison. zealot will have half again the ehp of a fleet ishtar, a tiny signature, the zealots dps is where the ship is, not where he drops it, fleet zealots are typically AB brawlers, not shield kiters, even beam zealot has significantly more tracking...

160km drone control range is nigh impossible with any tank due to cpu. 120ish is feasible.

I'm addressing people that have issue with the Ishtar bonuses as being far and above all other HACs. I went through and looked at the the bonuses on all the HACs and the Ishtar bonuses are in line with all the other HACs so it is not a bonuses issue.

That is why you see CCP now adjusting the weapon system and not the one hull. My point is that they are on the right track but it is probably a better solution to create a ranged weapon for drone ships below Battleship class and adjust accordingly.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2015-05-21 19:15:30 UTC
been forever since ive run a zealot but from what i remember: http://i.imgur.com/QP1mWJp.png basic fit. mids, ammo, and tank changed around as needed.

Plz show me an ishtar with 50% more tank that is pushing these super dupes range numbers

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2015-05-21 19:16:14 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Who puts 800s on a zealot...wtaf

Posting alts ? P


No, we have our dignity.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#166 - 2015-05-21 19:17:57 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:

I'm addressing people that have issue with the Ishtar bonuses as being far and above all other HACs. I went through and looked at the the bonuses on all the HACs and the Ishtar bonuses are in line with all the other HACs so it is not a bonuses issue.

That is why you see CCP now adjusting the weapon system and not the one hull. My point is that they are on the right track but it is probably a better solution to create a ranged weapon for drone ships below Battleship class and adjust accordingly.


Too bad out of 3 ship you messed your count on 2 of them...
Maxi Dap
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2015-05-21 19:21:21 UTC
The best solution would be to limit the number of ships that can target the same ship, a built in Target Spectrum breaker in to the mechanics of EvE, one that takes drones in to account as well.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#168 - 2015-05-21 19:21:58 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


I think what you need to do is compare these drones to what they are supposed to be competing with.

So for example, is the garde supposed to be competitive with blasters or rails?

If blasters, then gardes need high damage, high tracking, low range.
If rails, then gardes need moderate damage, low tracking, high range.

From there you just compare how many drones a player has and find dps profiles that match ships, So for example a blaster mega compared to a garde wielding domi.

Given you keep nuking the optimal of the garde it seems to me you want to compare it to blasters, so why are you still nuking the tracking and damage on it?

Because sentry drones are battleship weapons, and modifying them to behave more like them is a step in the right direction.
Alexis Nightwish
#169 - 2015-05-21 19:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
Valterra Craven wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere.

CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.



I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have.

Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 40mb
Cruiser: 50mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 35mb
Cruiser: 125mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far.

I personally don't have issue with a cruiser being able to hit that far when it's DPS is <200.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#170 - 2015-05-21 19:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Desudes wrote:
link your ishtar fit


Standard fit,

Quote:
[Universal Taggof]

Internal Force Field Array I
Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II
Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
EM Ward Field II

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II


Without the DLAs, or if you deploy w/ ABs you can fit LSE IIs and get 62k EHP unlinked.

So what of that sentry tracking? Roll

It is a 400 m resolution weapons system, must be bad, right?

Right.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#171 - 2015-05-21 19:24:17 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere.

CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.



I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have.

Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 40mb
Cruiser: 50mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 35mb
Cruiser: 125mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far.

I personally don't have issue with a cruiser being able to hit that far when it's DPS is <200.


Until a medium sized organisation bring 100 of them and you now deal with 20k dps...
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#172 - 2015-05-21 19:26:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic?

Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull?

Looking at other HACs the Munnin gets rate of fire, damage, optimal, and tracking; which from a bonus only comparison is better than the Ishtar's.

Several other HACs get double damage bonuses and double range, some only get one range bonus. The fact that the Ishtar gets one for damage, one for optimal, and one for tracking is not out of line with other HACs. It is the weapon system that makes the bonuses more meaningful.


Ishtar sentries gets bonus to damage, optimal, tracking and range. That's 4 bonus just like other HAC gets on top of another bonus specifically targeted at heavy drones.

Drone control range is the same as missile flight time/max velocity. It's a projection bonus especially when it's possible to reach the normal drone control range with your primary weapon system (sentries).

Quad weapon bonus at the cost of 3 bonus slot. Scrap the tracking or optimal which occupy the same slot so it's like other ships.

People keep confusing control range as a range bonus when it is comparable to a targeting computer. It lets you lock farther out and start shooting, but if you are outside falloff you are not going to hit anything. Using a Garde with 50 control range vs one with 120 control range is not going to let the drone hit a target any better.

Yes I missed the control range bonus since I was mainly looking at Sentries wich is what this thread is about. It helps mobile drones but due to travel time and not being as disposable as missiles, it is not really a good comparison to missile flight time/velocity.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#173 - 2015-05-21 19:27:30 UTC
Maxi Dap wrote:
The best solution would be to limit the number of ships that can target the same ship, a built in Target Spectrum breaker in to the mechanics of EvE, one that takes drones in to account as well.


Drone being the best counter to logi is a good idea...
GREYBOBSASS
Doomheim
#174 - 2015-05-21 19:29:04 UTC
one question since i have a deja-vu,


why are you nerfing sentries instead of ishtar?
you basicly trashing all sentry fits on every 125m3 dronebay boat except ishtar and dominix,

same as you did with heavy missile launchers and drakes a couple of years ago, instead of nerfing an overpowered ship you nerfed the weapon system. dont remember using heavy missiles since then well except my tengu which i flown more for the looks and sentiment than its **** performance.

gues on battlehsips its just geckos all the way now and sentries for the two dedicated ships ishtar/domi

im not complaining i just dont get the reasoning behind amount of nerfs. From sales perspective it just looks like the product youre selling is unbalanced and not worth engaing in, then again see player numbers its like half of what it used to be 4 years ago and still you guys telling us eve is growing, dont get me wron i love the game but some changes are just so full of **** i just dont get them
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#175 - 2015-05-21 19:29:39 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic?

Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull?

Looking at other HACs the Munnin gets rate of fire, damage, optimal, and tracking; which from a bonus only comparison is better than the Ishtar's.

Several other HACs get double damage bonuses and double range, some only get one range bonus. The fact that the Ishtar gets one for damage, one for optimal, and one for tracking is not out of line with other HACs. It is the weapon system that makes the bonuses more meaningful.


Ishtar sentries gets bonus to damage, optimal, tracking and range. That's 4 bonus just like other HAC gets on top of another bonus specifically targeted at heavy drones.

Drone control range is the same as missile flight time/max velocity. It's a projection bonus especially when it's possible to reach the normal drone control range with your primary weapon system (sentries).

Quad weapon bonus at the cost of 3 bonus slot. Scrap the tracking or optimal which occupy the same slot so it's like other ships.

People keep confusing control range as a range bonus when it is comparable to a targeting computer. It lets you lock farther out and start shooting, but if you are outside falloff you are not going to hit anything. Using a Garde with 50 control range vs one with 120 control range is not going to let the drone hit a target any better.

Yes I missed the control range bonus since I was mainly looking at Sentries wich is what this thread is about. It helps mobile drones but due to travel time and not being as disposable as missiles, it is not really a good comparison to missile flight time/velocity.


The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:...
Vandarra Deneroth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2015-05-21 19:31:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!



While these changes are all good dealing with the Domi and Archon meta's what also needs to be done is to increase the bandwidth of sentrey drones so Ishtar's simply cant use them.

Give the Navy Vexor the sentry role bonus - at least they dont rock T2 resists.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2015-05-21 19:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Desudes wrote:
link your ishtar fit


Standard fit,

Quote:
[Universal Taggof]

Internal Force Field Array I
Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II
Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
EM Ward Field II

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II


Without the DLAs, or if you deploy w/ ABs you can fit LSE IIs and get 62k EHP unlinked.

So what of that sentry tracking? Roll

It is a 400 m resolution weapons system, must be bad, right?

Right.


This fit does not get the numbers previously put up, it instead gets the ones I listed. 115ish control range, 450ish dps, will be blapped hardcore by TFI/machariels, will make an armor HAC gang work hard but tbh shouldn't be that bad if your anchor and tackle aren't ****, until you get to the magic alpha number.

Without DLAs, you'll be staying within dps range. You lose that race against AB zealots. Without mwd, you'll be kept in brawling range of zealots, so you'll lose that race even faster. Plz bring an ishtar fleet with these tactics on down to provi, I like fragging ishtars.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Alexis Nightwish
#178 - 2015-05-21 19:31:55 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere.

CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.



I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have.

Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 40mb
Cruiser: 50mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 35mb
Cruiser: 125mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far.

I personally don't have issue with a cruiser being able to hit that far when it's DPS is <200.


Until a medium sized organisation bring 100 of them and you now deal with 20k dps...

And your team of 100 who isn't gimping themselves with 2 sentries per Ishtar is doing nearly double that.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
donkie punch
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#179 - 2015-05-21 19:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: donkie punch
Please leave the garde optimal range alone, or less of a nerd. It not used in the current fleet meta (usually) and nerfing it to have almost no optimal range greatly decreases the ability to use them affectively. The boucer and curator I would agree need a. Nerd as the apply to much damage, tracking and extreme ranges allowing people to kit and fight without ever putting their ship at risk, but a nerf to optimal of gardes seems a bit excessive. Please reconsider

Also people are arguing about the Ishtar which results from the awesome hull bonuses to drones, which needs to be address ( even though I know there has been one nerf) in comparison to other hacs. And dps at extreme ranges ie the bouncer and curator, not the garde
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#180 - 2015-05-21 19:37:13 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.

Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus

All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.

Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.

Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.

Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.

The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics.


For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries.


Muninn at best is 420-450dps IIRC (not at my computer) and shoots around 27km+33km with shortrange ammo. With long range ammo its 50km+33km @ 280-300dps. Course thats with 2 TE. I dont remember the naked stats. That is locked in with explo or kinetic dmg for long range. If you use the proton ammo rounds you get even less dps to use thermal/em damage at range.

Eagle is around 400-450dps last i checked with shortrange ammo and rails, and goes down from there.

I havent tinkered with zealots much so im not familiar with em. I came into EVE during the shadoo era.. missed out on those doctrines. But from previous discussions on the topic its pretty similar to the other non ishtar HACs.

The cerb doesnt fall into the same category. Its more related to the vaga/deimos/sac. Its the more mobile vessel (compared to the eagle) its just caldari lore favors missile range. The cerb also has no tracking compared to drones (i guess you missed the flight time + missing comment). So saying missiles hit fine with flight time is not the same as drones hitting consistently with flight time.

The cerb is also locked into kinetic only damage, not good for fleets, which is why there are not cerb doctrines. The ishtar can switch damage types no problem by dropping a different set of sentries. These changes seem aimed at making the ishtars "ammo" have a bigger disparity between them, just like other ammo. Sacrifice/balance etc.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!