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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#521 - 2015-05-28 20:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget...
According to O.sium this Tengu is only 450M which was within the budget constraints asked for.

EDIT: O.Sium is not giving the right number.... or else I would not have brought this fit up. I'll see if I can fix it.


Yeah dropping it down to T2 BCUs and swapping CPU rig for missile rig you get 637DPS. For the price of 450-460m, Sorry. Still not too bad though.

And of course you can not overheat drones, so PvP paper dps is 749DPS for this 450M Tengu. Just pointing out another DPS difference between drones and traditional weapons.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#522 - 2015-05-28 20:23:32 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
I love how in the "we're nerfing sentry drones" thread all the talk is about ishtars and how overpowered they are and not the actual drone nerf.

I would like to see James Baboli's question answered by ccp.

Me too.
I'd like to know if heavy drones are considered balanced by CCP and if yes - why sentry drones are so much tougher? What if we swap EHP of those - will EVE die on the next day?
Louanne Barros
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#523 - 2015-05-28 23:48:48 UTC
You're right, clearly the Eos is so overpowered it needed a nerf to its weapon systems.
Clearly the Ishtar and Dominix aren't the only problematic sentry-drone ships, right? Despite nobody being able to name any others in this thread.

The falloff change to the Gardes also makes no 'lore' sense at all, like a previous poster pointed out.
Maxi Dap
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2015-05-29 07:41:31 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget...
According to O.sium this Tengu is only 450M which was within the budget constraints asked for.

EDIT: O.Sium is not giving the right number.... or else I would not have brought this fit up. I'll see if I can fix it.


Never mind the cost, good luck with that tank in a C3 anom lol
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2015-05-29 07:52:46 UTC
It would tank it fine due to the AB and being able to freely move. The ishtar I used to use had a comparable tank.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#526 - 2015-05-29 14:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!

Just remove sentry drones from game, you nerfed drones so much already, and normal combat drones are no longer allowed/useable in missions, because they get attacked second i deploy them, especially ogre II get killed instantly in level 4 mission after 5 seconds.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#527 - 2015-05-29 16:38:06 UTC
Spc One wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!

Just remove sentry drones from game, you nerfed drones so much already, and normal combat drones are no longer allowed/useable in missions, because they get attacked second i deploy them, especially ogre II get killed instantly in level 4 mission after 5 seconds.

That's because ogres have all their HP in structure with no resistance. Use something else. Wasps and Berserkers are perfectly usable for 'reasons'. Praetors are kind of ok if you have a HP bonus to them and willing to put a remote repper in a highslot. Armor gets shafted for no justifiable reason either since they don't heal themselves the way shield drones do. The armor shield dichotomy is fine at the ship level but for drones its stupid.

If you look back at dev blogs there was a deliberate decision to keep the total HP for gallente and minmatar drones less than the total HP for amarr and caldari drones to make up for them being more generalized. This hurt gallente far more than it should have, again, due to the structure issue.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#528 - 2015-05-29 16:46:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
That's because ogres have all their HP in structure with no resistance. Use something else. Wasps and Berserkers are perfectly usable for 'reasons'. Praetors are kind of ok if you have a HP bonus to them and willing to put a remote repper in a highslot. Armor gets shafted for no justifiable reason either since they don't heal themselves the way shield drones do. The armor shield dichotomy is fine at the ship level but for drones its stupid.

If you look back at dev blogs there was a deliberate decision to keep the total HP for gallente and minmatar drones less than the total HP for amarr and caldari drones to make up for them being more generalized. This hurt gallente far more than it should have, again, due to the structure issue.


It doesn't matter what heavy drones are used, they get attacked instantly, when heavy drone is 30km away from dominix, it will die, no matter what you do.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#529 - 2015-05-29 16:56:42 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
That's because ogres have all their HP in structure with no resistance. Use something else. Wasps and Berserkers are perfectly usable for 'reasons'. Praetors are kind of ok if you have a HP bonus to them and willing to put a remote repper in a highslot. Armor gets shafted for no justifiable reason either since they don't heal themselves the way shield drones do. The armor shield dichotomy is fine at the ship level but for drones its stupid.

If you look back at dev blogs there was a deliberate decision to keep the total HP for gallente and minmatar drones less than the total HP for amarr and caldari drones to make up for them being more generalized. This hurt gallente far more than it should have, again, due to the structure issue.


It doesn't matter what heavy drones are used, they get attacked instantly, when heavy drone is 30km away from dominix, it will die, no matter what you do.

Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#530 - 2015-05-29 17:19:43 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro.


Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones.
Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#531 - 2015-05-29 17:23:31 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro.


Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones.
Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time.



There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs.

So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#532 - 2015-05-29 17:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs.

So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%.

Do a test.
Get a dominix with t-2 heavy drones.
Go to level 4 mission, get aggro to your ship and deploy drones, check how long it takes for drones to die.
You will loose all of your drones in few seconds.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#533 - 2015-05-29 20:47:30 UTC
I don't talk forums much anymore and devblogs less. However, drones and even more drones in PvE I am more versed. Heavy drones indeed die much too fast for pve and pvp, well any drone can die fast and expected so. No comarison. There is balance to be found maybe in them., heavies that is. I do use them pve, but I combine it with a close range ship so I can easily recall individuals. The cheeze fit afk pve drone fits, yeah, they die real fast since no ship pulling agro.

But for sentries, it seems fair balance between to hit and their power. My sentry of choice is actually wardens with MJD and sniper fit. Damage and application over tank. Sure, actually have to play, but wide range battlefield control with damage projection, great damage and ranges. Try warden MJD rattler without the mega dps tank.... Hidh dps but 100km for your tank. Using heavies, then just get in their face. I do think the microwarp speed on mediums and heavy need a serious boost...

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Mukirana
Lone Lion Corporation
#534 - 2015-05-29 22:27:47 UTC
I think that RS (and other drone boats, except the Domi and the ishtar) will drop.

And yes, I think that I'll use Wardens all the time with my RS.
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#535 - 2015-05-29 23:31:27 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs.

So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%.

Do a test.
Get a dominix with t-2 heavy drones.
Go to level 4 mission, get aggro to your ship and deploy drones, check how long it takes for drones to die.
You will loose all of your drones in few seconds.


Then you must have terrible in game drone skills or terrible actual player drone management skills. I do Lvl4's with two RR Domi's and the only drones I have ever lost are lights when not paying attention. Only drones I normally rep with a repper are sentries and they can normally tank the whole room if they get aggro and I just rep them. I use no mods or rigs to affect drones speed or durability.

In short, you are either lying or a bad. Which is it?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#536 - 2015-05-30 00:33:11 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro.


Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones.
Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time.



There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs.

So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%.



You are way off base, and must not use drones often at all. There is no way, none at all, to reliably deal with agro on drones. The only time I wasn't losing several per mission is when I brought 2 or more friends with me. I have tried Ewar, Remote Reps, Target Painters, letting one die, etc... There are days when drones don't get a lot of attention, and then days when the AI has a dark hunger for drones that cannot be satisfied. The AI change is what prompted me to get out of drones and into Mauraders.

It's not about some magical skill for dealing with agro, there is no mystical arcane secret... Remote Reps, Ewar, etc... simply do not work.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#537 - 2015-05-30 00:35:49 UTC
Cartheron Crust wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs.

So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%.

Do a test.
Get a dominix with t-2 heavy drones.
Go to level 4 mission, get aggro to your ship and deploy drones, check how long it takes for drones to die.
You will loose all of your drones in few seconds.


Then you must have terrible in game drone skills or terrible actual player drone management skills. I do Lvl4's with two RR Domi's and the only drones I have ever lost are lights when not paying attention. Only drones I normally rep with a repper are sentries and they can normally tank the whole room if they get aggro and I just rep them. I use no mods or rigs to affect drones speed or durability.

In short, you are either lying or a bad. Which is it?


It could be he is solo, talking about heavy drones and not sentries, and lacks the rep power or projection to let the sentries tank.

Your example pre-supposes the drones are actually getting agro and you are simply repping through the damage.
loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#538 - 2015-05-30 01:32:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums.

Big smile


Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?)


Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet.

Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth (with Ishtars the most obvious offender, but Domis, carriers, VNIs, Rattlesnakes and Geddons all affected), which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx.

I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth.


Remember a few years back when Drone platform was a new concept. First thanks for making drones a platform like lasers, projectiles etc.
Second thought is, other platforms have close range and long range variants with advantages and disadvantages. you have four sentries with different advantages and disadvantages. Pick two and say these are close range fast tracking and the next two are long range etc. THEN FIX the Ishtar problem by leaving it alone, and buff the other HAC's :p
ashley Eoner
#539 - 2015-05-30 03:29:35 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro.


Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones.
Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time.



There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs.

So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%.

I can't agree with that statement. Geckos don't seem to pull the aggro that regular heavies pull. I have extensive testing in incursions AND mission running. Where my geckos rarely have issues it seems that I'm always pulling the regular t2 heavies back in all the time to get aggro off them.
Crimson Red
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#540 - 2015-05-30 03:46:04 UTC
The problem is that the ishtar far out DPS's other HACs at RANGE and has great damage application because of its double bonus. Optimal range AND tracking.

Period, the end, simple.

CCP, stop screwing over everyone over 1 broken hull.