These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#481 - 2015-05-27 11:12:37 UTC
Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.

Inspired.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#482 - 2015-05-27 11:41:54 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.

Inspired.


Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#483 - 2015-05-27 14:56:16 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.

Inspired.


Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones.


Then they become a must have in fleets just in case...
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#484 - 2015-05-27 17:03:16 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.

Inspired.


Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones.


Then they become a must have in fleets just in case...

Tactical rock-paper-scissors is a valid balancing mechanic..... Though with CCPs usual balancing finesse it will probably come out more like Planet-cracking-asteriod-tissue-paper-shotgun.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Maxi Dap
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#485 - 2015-05-27 17:11:49 UTC
well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.
Jacid
The Upside Down
#486 - 2015-05-27 17:18:03 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.

Inspired.


Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones.


I think it offers a better solution than beating to death the ishtar and sentries with the nerf bat. Sentries should be more powerful than other weapon systems at the cost of being able to be destroyed as was intended

The alternative along those same lines is just to increase the sig radius and decrees the EHP of sentries looking at it with drone bonuses the garde has maybe 5k ehp and frig size sig.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2015-05-27 17:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships.

I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING Smile

I've long advocated in other threads to drop the control range bonus and nerf CPU to enforce a fitting compromise of range (DLA) vs DPS (DDA), for example. That doesn't kill the Ishtar at all, brawlers are untouched, snipers lose some DPS as they have too much today. PvE could drop tank to use say...overclocks because....PvE who needs the tank?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#488 - 2015-05-27 17:42:53 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships.

I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING Smile

Nah, it is usually Tank, speed, range, tracking, Ewar, DPS, pick 3 or pick half of 4. Ishtar gets to pick 5, which is why it is a problem.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#489 - 2015-05-27 17:44:44 UTC
Yes, I was paraphrasing as on a mobile Smile
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#490 - 2015-05-27 17:47:52 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Yes, I was paraphrasing as on a mobile Smile

Apologies for calling you out on brevity.
Not sorry for helping expand the idea set as I agree with it entirely. Real fitting choices (even if they don't trim the fitting room, slot reduction or DLA adjustment should help alot)

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#491 - 2015-05-27 18:28:22 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
What's wrong with drone tracking math?



EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly.

I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations.

I didn't ask about EFT.

The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about.
Abby Silverwind
Demonic Retribution
Shadow Ultimatum
#492 - 2015-05-27 19:00:11 UTC
The rage and tears in this thread are beautiful. Nice changes +1

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me;

Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Drunk Posting Best Posting
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#493 - 2015-05-27 19:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Primary This Rifter wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
What's wrong with drone tracking math?



EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly.

I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations.

I didn't ask about EFT.

The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about.


But I was speaking in the context of EFT....


Ed: Which I checked and sentries model correctly just remember they assume the target ships are moving relative to the sentries.


_________

@James Baboli No worries Smile
Lugh Crow-Slave
#494 - 2015-05-27 20:30:33 UTC
Maxi Dap wrote:
well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.



not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game.


and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#495 - 2015-05-28 01:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
afkalt wrote:
No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships.

I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING Smile

I've long advocated in other threads to drop the control range bonus and nerf CPU to enforce a fitting compromise of range (DLA) vs DPS (DDA), for example. That doesn't kill the Ishtar at all, brawlers are untouched, snipers lose some DPS as they have too much today. PvE could drop tank to use say...overclocks because....PvE who needs the tank?


Just dropping the control range bonus would go a long way, because that nerfs the projection. I'm not even sure that it would be necessary to also nerf the CPU. An Ishtar that has to stay closer to the sentries and cannot tell them to shoot at targets that are quite as far away is not the Ishtar we are used to.

As you suggested, the goal should be to bring the Ishtar in line with the Zealot, Muninn, and Eagle, not turn it into a smoking crater of uselessness.

Edit - taking another look at it, I would remove about 70 CPU from the Ishtar (at max skills) and replace the Drone operation range bonus with something else. Bonus to armor repair amount seems kind of obvious and in no danger of making the ship OP in large scale fights, but I am sure some of the intelligent folks around here can think of something better.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#496 - 2015-05-28 01:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
James Baboli wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?


Large Railguns, Beams and Arties.

They just forgot to adjust VNI & Ishtar bandwidths when DDAs came out.

Primary This Rifter wrote:
afkalt wrote:



EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly.

I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations.

I didn't ask about EFT.

The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about.


Bonused sentries have Medium turret tracking, on top of being independent of the host ship's velocity, range or direction relative to the target.

Cry me a river. Smile

Aplysia Vejun wrote:


Let us see:
Your turning rate in rad:
2×3.14 /(30km×2×3.14/4.4kmper sec)=about 0.146 rad per second
Curator turning rate per second without tracking enhancers= 0.024
You are turning abot 6 time faster than the turning rate of the curators. No, they wont hit you!


That is just the base tracking stat, and depending on range, they will.

Bonused sentries have tracking equal to medium Heavy Beams w/ Aurora, and with them being independent of the Ishtar, situations with <1 km/s transversal can occur, even if your ship can push 4.4 km/s.

http://i.imgur.com/2l2wrZJ.png and at 1300 m/s transversal Curators start to hit you from 17.5 km, going all the way to 75 km with 60% hit chance.

http://www.hostile.dk/files/eve/eve-tracking101.swf

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#497 - 2015-05-28 04:23:13 UTC
So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries.

I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave.
Teebeutel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#498 - 2015-05-28 05:23:20 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries.

I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave.

You can't orbit sentries effectively enough to give all of them tracking problems if they're spread out by even the slightest bit, which is something that any competently run ishtar fleet will make sure of, at certain fleet sizes the blob of sentries just becomes to big.
Not to mention that in the time you would spend killing their sentries, they kill your fleetmates.
Maxi Dap
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#499 - 2015-05-28 06:35:48 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maxi Dap wrote:
well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.



not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game.


and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not


Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships.

See if you can fit the criteria bellow:

460m budget
15 min C3 site clear avarage
Cruiser size hull
700+ dps out ot 65km range application
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#500 - 2015-05-28 07:06:16 UTC
Teebeutel wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries.

I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave.

You can't orbit sentries effectively enough to give all of them tracking problems if they're spread out by even the slightest bit, which is something that any competently run ishtar fleet will make sure of, at certain fleet sizes the blob of sentries just becomes to big.
Not to mention that in the time you would spend killing their sentries, they kill your fleetmates.


So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness

It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy.