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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#401 - 2015-05-25 12:58:10 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:



The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015:

Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770

Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734

Caracal Navy Issue: 689

Osprey Navy Issue: 695

Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695

Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242

Navy Omen: 9 992

Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356



So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal


CCP Falcon wrote:


In terms of classification based on fleet numbers, it would be something like this:


  • CONCORD Assembly - Largest by far, in terms of numbers.
  • Amarr Navy - Massive and sprawling, but aging quite heavily.
  • Federation Navy - Sizeable, and very much up to date.
  • Republic Fleet - Sizeable, maybe 70% or so the size of the Federation Navy, but less maintained.
  • Caldari Navy - Smallest significantly, but incredibly advanced and cutting edge.


There's no public data on the Jove Navy's fleet numbers, so they're not on this list.

In terms of classification based on technology, fleet age and fleet performance per vessel, it would look something like this:


    [*} Jove Navy - We know their tech is hugely advanced, so they get top spot.
  • CONCORD Assembly - they have the ability to keep everyone in check.
  • Caldari Navy - The Caldari Navy's fleet is the youngest and most sophisticated. Average fleet age is less than 20 years.
  • Federation Navy - Very advanced, relying heavily on automation. Reliable and very powerful.
  • Amarr Navy - Aging, with a significant number of its fleet needing updates and refitting.
  • Republic Fleet - Not in as bad shape as the worst of the Amarr Navy, but in need of a breath of fresh life in places.




It's probably because we don't want to risk our relatively "young" ships...

Roll
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#402 - 2015-05-25 13:32:56 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:



The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015:

Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770

Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734

Caracal Navy Issue: 689

Osprey Navy Issue: 695

Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695

Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242

Navy Omen: 9 992

Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356



So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal


CCP Falcon wrote:


In terms of classification based on fleet numbers, it would be something like this:


  • CONCORD Assembly - Largest by far, in terms of numbers.
  • Amarr Navy - Massive and sprawling, but aging quite heavily.
  • Federation Navy - Sizeable, and very much up to date.
  • Republic Fleet - Sizeable, maybe 70% or so the size of the Federation Navy, but less maintained.
  • Caldari Navy - Smallest significantly, but incredibly advanced and cutting edge.


There's no public data on the Jove Navy's fleet numbers, so they're not on this list.

In terms of classification based on technology, fleet age and fleet performance per vessel, it would look something like this:


    [*} Jove Navy - We know their tech is hugely advanced, so they get top spot.
  • CONCORD Assembly - they have the ability to keep everyone in check.
  • Caldari Navy - The Caldari Navy's fleet is the youngest and most sophisticated. Average fleet age is less than 20 years.
  • Federation Navy - Very advanced, relying heavily on automation. Reliable and very powerful.
  • Amarr Navy - Aging, with a significant number of its fleet needing updates and refitting.
  • Republic Fleet - Not in as bad shape as the worst of the Amarr Navy, but in need of a breath of fresh life in places.




It's probably because we don't want to risk our relatively "young" ships...

Roll


Procurers probably get more kills than navy caracals.

Ed: Certainly this year:

Navy Caracal:
May 425
April 689
March 678
February 573
January 644

Procurer:
May 1,077
April 1,131
March 1,323
February 1,337
January 1,518


Even the mighty venture competes:
Venture
May 405
April 776
March 668
February 597
January 651
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#403 - 2015-05-25 15:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
afkalt wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
A 47k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km on a Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 sentry DPS with 3 DDAs. Smile It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. Smile



VNI isn't anywhere near as horrible as the other hulls, missing a lot of the key facets: T2 resists, drone control range, MWD sig reduction, smaller bay (bombing them is actually viable as they can only carry 1 full flight of sentries) and it even has trouble targeting that far out.


Cool story.

Only that it was being compared to other Faction Tech 1 hulls - they are out of proportion and frankly OP.

When Drone Damage Amplifiers were introduced, the 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints & damage bonus, nor the bandwidth on all the droneboats at that time weren't changed to reflect the new reality - a very, very grave oversight with the consequences being plain to see.

Drones were already a formidable weapons system before DDAs due to the 10% per level hull bonus and built-in base attributes. The 850 DPS Ogres may be balanced on a Battleship hull, but on a cruiser with 125 MB drone bandwidth it is retardo levels.

☑ Arbitrator fine
☑ Prophecy fine
☑ Myrmidon fine
☑ Dominix fine
☑ Armageddon fine
☑ Curse/Pilgirm fine
☑ Proteus/Legion fine

☐ Ishtar not fine
☐ VNI not fine
☐ Vexor not fine


CCP?

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#404 - 2015-05-25 16:28:36 UTC
Is it? I can get 940 out of an ENI and it's not like the VNI can carry alternate drones.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#405 - 2015-05-25 16:36:57 UTC
It's 928 DPS with Neutron Blasters and 4x Magstabs plus 5 Hobgoblins II - with the usual disadvantages that the blaster ships have to endure.

The VNI is 934 DPS with Ogres if you use two Neutron Blasters.

Gallente having two of these boats is not a very balanced situation - one of them is being able to project 600 DPS to HAC & Battleship ranges.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#406 - 2015-05-25 16:46:11 UTC
It's 940 with heat. I used a workable fit Smile
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#407 - 2015-05-25 16:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
With heat it's 1053 DPS,

Quote:
[Exequror Navy Issue]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Hobgoblin II x5


Fifty CPU short, but is rectifiable. Smile

Almost matches the VNI in EHP - 40k.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#408 - 2015-05-25 17:00:13 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
With heat it's 1053 DPS,

Quote:
[Exequror Navy Issue]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Hobgoblin II x5


Fifty CPU short, but is rectifiable. Smile

Almost matches the VNI in EHP - 40k.


50 on a hull that start out with 425 is not that easy... Genolution + 6% implant is not enough...
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#409 - 2015-05-25 17:04:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
The RF LSEs are going to be 40 CPU, so that's -12 CPU already, faction Magstabs reduce it by 10 each, CN Invul by another 17 tf.

I do agree - not easy, just like I said with regards to blasterboats, not to mention tackle, which in the case of VNI/Ishtars can consist only of a few dictors.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#410 - 2015-05-25 17:06:34 UTC
I prefer this, better application

[Exequror Navy Issue, Blasters]
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Warrior II x5


50 CPU is a bunch short though. Anyway, it's not that much of an outlier, heavys aren't all that fabulous off paper.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#411 - 2015-05-25 17:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Indeed, to make it work with only a 3% PG implant, one can swap out for Ions in my fit, you can remove the RCU and Ancil rig, get a Co-Proc II in, change CDFE IIs to Tech 1 and fit a Burst Aerator II rig = 1050 DPS heated and 38k EHP. Smile

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#412 - 2015-05-25 17:16:14 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
The RF LSEs are going to be 40 CPU, so that's -12 CPU already, faction Magstabs reduce it by 10 each, CN Invul by another 17 tf.

I do agree - not easy, just like I said with regards to blasterboats, not to mention tackle, which in the case of VNI/Ishtars can consist only of a few dictors.


At that point, you jump in an Ishtar insetad of putting faction mods on a faction cruiser unless you absolutely need to be in a T1 hull...
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#413 - 2015-05-25 17:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Exactly.

If not work -> Goto Ishtar
If battleship explode -> Goto Ishtar
If HAC can't do 450 DPS at 100 km -> Goto Ishtar

Though the comparison was between Faction Tech 1 cruisers and their relative utility - a Nomen can reach 100km, but with 260 DPS, so the VNI competes with BATTLESHIPS.

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#414 - 2015-05-25 17:31:49 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Exactly.

If not work -> Goto Ishtar
If battleship explode -> Goto Ishtar
If HAC can't do 450 DPS at 100 km -> Goto Ishtar

Though the comparison was between Faction Tech 1 cruisers and their relative utility - a Nomen can reach 100km, but with 260 DPS, so the VNI competes with BATTLESHIPS.


VNI cant even lock that far.

You're too focused on the big eft numbers tbh, the reality is different.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#415 - 2015-05-25 17:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
It's sufficient for medium engagements and with 1 Singlar Amplifier II you can get 87 km lock range, which would be the sweet spot for your 620 DPS Bouncers, though the dronebay is limited for sentry spam.

The 125 MB bandwidth on a cruiser hull is broken any way you look at it, and Sabriz posted the single best idea in the whole thread,

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:

Also remember the nuclear option on sentries if needed - making heavies 20mb/s bandwidth, sentries 30mb/s, and then making the Ishtar and VNI both 100mb/s while battleship droneboats get 120 or 150mb/s as appropriate to the hull. If this patch PLUS a recalibration of the Ishtar hull don't solve the problem, bring out that nuclear option.


I like it how everyone disregards Battlecruisers, as they are indeed irrelevant. Smile

If drones stay at current mb/s levels, then cruisers, including the Vexor, at 50 MB, BCs with 75-100, Ishtar and VNI at 75 with varying degrees of the hull damage bonus would be a lot more reasonable, but is le ~effort~ for CCP.

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#416 - 2015-05-25 18:12:18 UTC
That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko.

It also ignores the command ships.


How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#417 - 2015-05-25 18:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
afkalt wrote:
That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko.


Changing drone bandwidth would require the review of all the hulls, yes.

This is why I mentioned the second solution, which is cruisers at 50 MB, Ishtar & VNI at 75, Battlecruisers at 75-100, which they actually are at right now.

You can make a Vexor do more DPS than an Arbi with the same bandwidth for both by differentiating them via the hull damage bonus.

Quote:
How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage.


It doesn't fix anything, the engagements will just become medium range with DLAs neglected, or with just one fitted on Ishtars. Even without an Optimal range bonus to sentries, the Ishtard would outclass all HACs in range and damage.

So the issue is more fundamental than most like to present.

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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#418 - 2015-05-25 18:22:16 UTC
afkalt wrote:
That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko.

It also ignores the command ships.


How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage.

Or to a mid. then you have to pick range or application or tackle or shield tank or range control.

Either one is a boom headshot sorta fix that deals a body blow to the huge DPS at insane ranges with insane dps relative to the tradeoffs made.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#419 - 2015-05-25 18:24:03 UTC
Mid would be a better option, but Ishtars as is would still compete with Battleships, not HACs.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#420 - 2015-05-25 18:24:34 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Quote:
How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage.


It doesn't fix anything, the engagements will just become medium range with DLAs neglected, or with just one fitted on Ishtars. Even without an Optimal range bonus to sentries, the Ishtard would outclass all HACs in range and damage.

So the issue is more fundamental than most like to present.

Still a major blow to the combo of ranges, and means that ishtars and similar can have their slots pruned and fitting room re-adjusted appropriately more easily to prevent them from getting full damage with full application and range with oversized prop and plate.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp